Help :: trying to raise my 1st string a whole step

Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

i'm trying and failing... on my all-pull emmons legrande, i like to raise the 1st string a whole step on the RKL (along with lowering 6 a whole step).

the guitar came to me raising the 1st string just a 1/2 step, and as much as i try i cannot get it to raise a whole.

looked at this: http://www.steelguitarinfo.com/adjustments/tuneitup.html

couldn't figure it out.

i have gone through this before, but lately i have been squarely in push/pull land and now i can't get my head back.

someone, please help me!

thanks in advance,
mike

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Mike,I think that the rod pulling the first string needs more length?Try backing off the tuning nut,and try another hole on the bell crank.Do they still have that Parachute ride at Coney Island? happy 4th,Stu
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Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Mike, for the 1st string whole step raise. Use the top bellcrank hole.Middle raise hole on the changer side.Then add travel as needed to the knee lever itself. Most LeGrande LKR's are set up to either lower the E's a half or raise them a half.Which doesn't take much knee lever travel. Hope this helps.

Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

oy - i got dyslexic there a minute. or just plain turned around. i'm talking about the RKL. i will edit above to reflect that.

does that change your response, bobby?

thanks in advance.

mike

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Mike, Connect the rod as I suggested.THen if it's still not pulling far enough. Add a little travel to the knee lever itself.......bb

Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

OK thanks Bobby - working on it right now. but can you clarify "add travel" for me?

does that have something to do with lowering the sixth string?

or some kind of lever stop?

mike

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There are 3 things that can be done - looking at the steel upside down:

1) At the bellcrank end - move pull rod end higher on the bellcrank - away from the cross rod. This gives more string pull, at the expense of a stiffer pull. Bellcrank hole position has a very strong effect on the leverage.

2) At the changer end - move the pull rod end lower on changer - towards the changer axle - again this gives more and stiffer string pull. My experience is that changer hole movement has a smaller effect on leverage than comparable bellcrank hole movement - I usually try to set up changer holes to make my pull rods as parallel to the body as possible.

3) Increase the knee lever travel by adjusting the stop away from the rest point of the lever. If I like the amount of travel, I try 1) and 2) first, and increase travel only if necessary.

There should be no essential problem in getting string 1 to go up a whole tone. This thread is also useful: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=32523

The leverage principles are:

1. On the pulling bellcrank, as you move the pull rod further away from the cross rod, equal change in cross rod angle leads to larger linear displacement in pull rod position but requires more force to make the change.

2. On the pulled changer finger, as you move the pull rod further away from the changer axle, equal linear displacement in pull rod position leads to smaller change in changer axle angle. This gives less string pitch change but requires less force to make the change.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

If you're using a .013p for your first-string, it would be adviseable to change that to .012p also!
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

On the changer end and on the Bell crank, take a look at the 5th string, which pulls the B to a C#, a full tone if you will.

Note the positions that the rod is in at both the changer and the bell crank.

This is just for a mental note, the picture if you will.

Now keep in mind that the 5th string is going to be a heavier gauge but you can compensate for that easily .

With the Steel upside down.

The shortest throw or travel for the rods are when the rod is in the changer/bell crank positions closest to the body. The Longest throw or rod travel, is when the rod is in the positions farthest away from the body.

On my Carter, the 1st string full tone raise rod is in the Raise finger slot farthest from the body and on the bell crank position near the middle.

If you have too much pull distance then the knee lever requires too much travel.

think physics, you want the required distance for the rod but not more than required or your action will be nutty and if you have something else on the Knee Lever such as a 2nd string raise or 6 lower or 7 raise, you may mess them up.

the Legrandes are easy to work with, this shouldn't take up much time or effort.

I realize you live in Brooklyn, but if you happen to be driving near Charlotte NC today bring your Steel over and we'll fix er' up together !

Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

hey guys --

thank you for ALL your great info.

dave m. -- thanks for getting granular with your lesson. i always find it very helpful to have a holistic view of a project. how you feeling, by the way? how's that hatton case i sent you?

Keoni Nui -- hey! whattya got E.S.P.? i realized this morning after reading your post that i have been using a .012 1st string on my other guitars, and this guitar came with a .013. so changing that will help a lot. but... where did you install your spy cam?

tony p. -- i wish i were driving past your town later; i would stop in for some lessons! i been checking out your YouTube videos and they are slick.

peace,
mike

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Mike; Remember, “The Eyes Of Tn. Are Upon You”! Oh! I'm in the wrong state! My normal state is “Confusion”! Keoni Nui
(Rule of thumb) Use strings gauged for their highest attained pitch.
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Mike, I don't see it mentioned so I will suggest that if you are having problems after following the good advise you have received you should watch the lowering finger when you activate the lever and make certain that it is not moving from the stop. If it does then as the string raises it will also be lowering and defeat the raise. If it is not staying firmly against the stop you need to tighten the lower return spring enough to keep this from happening. Just watch the part that the spring is attached to and if the spring is not tight enough you will see that finger pull away from stop causing the spring to stretch slightly. You can also test this by using your finger and apply pressure against the lowering finger and help the spring as you activate the raise lever. If this is the problem chances are you have already overtuned the nylon hex tuner and will need to back it out and start over after the spring is tightened.
Jerry

Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

ugh... troubles continue.

i got the .012 on there again, and i have the bell crank and finger rodded as suggested in the posts above. but it takes many turns of the nylon tuning nut to get the raise close to pitch, however i never attain the whole step raise.

and then the open string is pulled way sharp and i have cranked way down on the tuning nut so the finger is all pulled way in. as i continue to try this, i keep breaking the strings due to over-tensioning.

shouldn't this be easy?

what am i not seeing. what's my problem?

i repeat: ugh...

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

Mike, first unscrew the nylon tuner completely off. Next look mounted to the rear apron there is a nylon stop in a rectangular shape attached to the rear apron with two screws. The stop on the end of the cross shaft stops against that nylon stop. Then on the other side of the stop that is mounted on the cross shaft is an aluminum bracket attached to the rear apron. There is an allen bolt in that bracket that stops the travel of the cross shaft on the idle position. You need to back that allen bolt out several turns. This will allow the cross shaft to travel enough to pull the string a whole tone. Now you start turning the nylon tuning nut in until you get the first string tuned to the Ab pull. Note, you are going to have to back off the other string or strings that are hooked to this lever because you have increased the travel so they will be overtuning. Also, you will need to readjust the lever position as it is going to be angled more to the right. If the pull rods are in the correct holes and the lower return spring is tight enough this should fix it. You might need to take more than one try at it because the ideal situation is for there to only be a minimal free travel when it is working properly.
Jerry

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Mike; I sincerely don't want to insult you or hurt your feelings in any way, but; judging from your Avatar picture, I think perhaps your eyes might be a little too close together! (Please consider this as just a sample of my dieing sense of humor!)
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<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster

Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

Jerry --

OK - thanks for the info; I'll get back under there and let you know what happens.

Big John -- RE: the avatar. For the record, I was a little high when that picture was taken. And by "high" I mean I was a monkey. I have... evolved.

(thanks - you cracked me up first thing in the morning - before i had my coffee or anything!)

Mike

Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

Jerry --

Yeah, Buddy! Your advice got me pointed in the right direction. Once I backed off that allen screw a bit, I got the room i needed to make the change happen.

Thanks for everything, everyone. It was a group effort, and I really appreciate all your help. Like they say, "It takes a village to raise your 1st string a whole step."

Mike

Al Vesel · From: Chisholm, Minnesota, USA

Mike,
Bit of info. I had the same problem when I got my Mullen. I couldn't for the life of me get it to raise a full step. I had the tuning nut tuned all the way in, and finally when I got it to a full step, when
released it stayed sharp. Finally I got some good advice, which is also mentioned above by Bobby Boggs. My problem was with knee lever travel. I tweaked that and problem was solved.

Al Vesel
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Mike Phillips · From: Brooklyn, NY

Yes, indeed; it was a matter of knee lever travel. i had just forgotten the mechanics of giving it more travel for awhile. once i started backing off that allen set screw, it all started to come together.

so thanks to all for the advice here - my first string raise is working nicely.

you can close this up as you see fit.

mike

Savell · From: Slocomb, AL

This article is just as good as the first time I read it in 2007.

I had the same problem again this week pulling the first string up a whole tone and had forgotten what I did to make it work.

Got it working in 15 minutes after reading this article.

Cool beans!

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

There's one issue that hasn't been addressed;
"Do they still have that Parachute ride at Coney Island?"
My Grandpa took me on that parachute drop ride 55 years ago. It was a very foggy day. 10 feet up and you couldn't see a thing! Scared the CrÃªpe outa me! I hope it's gone!

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