Damaged in transit...Input requested

Bobby Duncan · From: Pensacola, FL, USA (these days)

I sold and shipped an Amp on the Forum for $400.00. It was damaged beyond repair in transit. I did insure the amp and have filed the claim with the shipper. The shipper told me that they would pick up the amp and send it to their Claims Dept, and then would contact me within 7-10 days.
The buyer is asking me for a FULL and IMMEDIATE refund.
Naturally, I am more than willing to refund the payment, after the insurance pays it. I have even agreed to split the difference in the unlikely event that the shipper does not pay for any reason. In other words, if I get nothing, I will refund $200.00.
The buyer is telling me that S.O.P., according to Forum members is for ME to REFUND the FULL amount.
I'd like to get some feedback on this. I am a reasonable man, and will do what has to be done to be fair and reasonable.
I'd be particularly interested in similar cases that actually happened and how they were settled between the buyer and seller. Did someone ACTUALLY give a FULL and IMMEDIATE REFUND in this situation???
Thank you for your input.
I apologize if this is in the wrong topic, and fully understand if you relocate it.
BD

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Well, I did on a Transtubefex. I had to fight with UPS, as they are self-insured. I felt it was not the buyers problem that they ran over it with a truck!
However it took me two months to get a refund. They immediatley refused, saying it was packed wrong and in a used box. Photos clearly showed tire tracks onthe package.
I now pack like it will be shipped by gorillas! I have had no more problems since then.
I would do the same for a buyer again, as I feel it is the shippers responsibility to get it safeley to the buyer and also to insure and collect on the same.
That's just my opinion, maybe not the general consensus.

winston · From: Frankfort, Kentucky 40601

I sold Jerry Roller a digital recorder that was damaged in shipping. I refunded all his money and waited for the insurance claim to be settled.

Roger Kelly · From: Bristol,Tennessee

In my opinion, if the buyer doesn't want to wait until you settle your insurance claim with your Shipper, you should refund the ENTIRE amount of the purchase price to him AFTER the Shipping Company has picked up the item for claims adjustment.
I had the same thing happen to me a few weeks ago, but the buyer was willing to wait until I received my insurance money from UPS. It took about 5 weeks before I got my money, which I promptly sent to the buyer. If the buyer had not wanted to wait I would have refunded the Entire amount AFTER the Shipping Company picked up the Amp for damage claim assessment. It is the SELLER/Shippers responsibility to recover their loss from the Shipping Company in my opinion.

Bobby Duncan · From: Pensacola, FL, USA (these days)

Thanks for the comments guys. I think at the very least this raises a very interesting and worthwhile discussion.

Let me ask these questions too, from a "principal of the thing" perspective.

1. IF you sold someone a $2000.00 steel guitar, hypothetically of course, and it was damaged in transit, would you issue a full refund and suffer the entire loss yourself???

2. And, if so, would you say that it is "understood" amongst forum members that buyers can expect a full refund in that situation???

3. Also, I have to ask, what if you were "Trading" steel guitars, even up, and one was damaged in transit. Then, would the guy who received the damaged guitar be entitled to receive the undamaged guitar back???

3.a. Would the other guy be expected to bear the entire loss? How would you suggest working that one out?

Thanks to all,
BD

Michael Lee Allen · From: Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois

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Chris Boyd · From: Leonia,N.J./Charlestown,R.I.

I also feel that it is the SELLERS responsibility to make sure that all is well for the BUYER...I have had a few amps shipped to me that arrived with destroyed speakers,and I ended up paying for reconing with only partial reimbursement...not really fair...In this instance,I'd suggest that you refund the $$ for the amp now,and then get reimbursed from the shipper...if you were the buyer,wouldn't you want it that way?..Just my two cents....

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

So, if you are the seller and you refund the buyers money.....You are at the mercy of the carrier? If your claim is denied for whatever arbitrary reason the carrier chooses, you are the one left holding the bag and the carrier gets off scott free?
I recently had extreme good luck shipping an old irreplaceable Sho-Bud amp while holding my breath every second 'til it arrived all intact. I packed it like it was going to be kicked out the back of a C-130 on a touch and go but I was still very nervous about the trip and wouldn't do it again even though everything I have sent by FedEx has arrived unscathed.

Denny Turner · From: Oahu, Hawaii USA

I do approx 100 musical instrument related mail-order transactions per year, both buying and selling.

I encounter damage to shipments coming to me, about 3 times a year on average. I've never had damage on goods I sent out.

In my UNQUALIFIED / LAYMAN opinion (not to be legally relied upon):

I would suppose that most mail-order transactions involve simple agreements such as cost of item, shipping carrier to use, cost of shipping, cost of packing / handling if any, and cost of insurance.

Unless clearly stated otherwise, a Seller (aka 'Shipper') is responsible for shipping which reasonably infers that the item will arive safe and sound. For instance, if a Buyer doesn't desire to pay for insurance, a Seller is still responsible for getting the item to the Buyer safe and sound, UNLESS otherwise agreed to in writing. A shipping carrier writes insurance to the Shipper / Seller, not to the Buyer, unless the shipping carrier has provision for a claim payment to be made to an 'Additional Insured' (party). On the other hand, a Buyer can also be the Shipper by booking the shipment him/herself for pickup and delivery, whereupon if they bought insurance it would be written to them.

If a Seller desires to disclaim shipping responsibility, then he/she must say that in writing as part of the deal; Such as:

"I will not be responsible for shipping damage once the item is in the posession of the shipping carrier. The Buyer should obtain his/her own shipping insurance if desired, or the Buyer can imburse me in advance to obtain insurance from the shipping carrier for the Buyer. I will submit claims paperwork that might be required of me by the shipping carrier."

Unless a shipping damage disclaimer is stated in writing, then the Seller (aka the Shipper) buying insurance would be to insure his/her and the shipping carrier's responsibility to deliver the goods safe and sound, even though the Buyer might have paid for the insurance.

So, unless a disclaimer is made by the Seller, then the Seller is responsible to reimburse the Buyer as soon as it's known that the goods did not arrive safe and sound; Whereupon the Seller files his/her insurance claim for reimbursement.

.....IMHO.

Aloha,
Denny T~

Michael Lee Allen · From: Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois

Delete

Bobby Duncan · From: Pensacola, FL, USA (these days)

Fair enough. I'll issue the refund as soon as I receive the amp.
Thanks for all of your input. I do value the opinions of my fellow Forumites.
BD

Jeff Hogsten · From: Flatwoods Ky USA

seems like someone could ship things safer than ups or fed ex In the last couple of years I lost a kurzweil keyboard that was shipped in a skb flight case the case showed no damage but open it up and the keyboard is broken to pieces I lost a 65 black face reverb a evans amp I used greyhound with great sucess but now they only insure up to about $250. At any rate they will do everything possable to beat you out of a claim you just have to stick with and argue with them

Lyle Bradford · From: Gilbert WV USA (deceased)

Guys I am the one who bought the amp. I have dealt with a whole lot of you on the forum and this is a first for me. I did not know what to do other than ask for help on here about how to settle this. When UPS said they were picking the amp up Friday and taking it back to the shipper i just wanted to know if I should let them take it or not. I did not know the SOP of a deal like this.I deeply regret that it has happened. If I have done anything wrong I apologize to the seller and to the forum. To me you guys as a whole are the law that we members abide by. I will make the selller an offer and try to get this out of the way.

Roger Kelly · From: Bristol,Tennessee

Lyle, I didn't know the proceedures on a claim either however, now that I was involved in one I now know. If a buyer like yourself has a claim because of damage, the carrier usually will take posession of the item, since it will ultimately be theirs after they pay the insurance claim. If you had not let them have it the process would have taken much longer and also, the seller needs to know that there was in fact a claim in process before refunding your money, in my opinion.
I hope you and the seller, and carrier, can get this worked out to everyone's satisfaction soon. Good luck.

Gere Mullican · From: LaVergne, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

I know some of you have heard my story before but I had a Marlen SD-10 and a Peavey Nashville 400 amp shipped to me from Phoenix a couple of years ago. The amp arrived busted and the steel never arrived. I tried to file a claim and they denied. They even hung up in my face when I reached them by phone. After a year or so it was sold by the unclaimed baggage warehouse in Alabama to a person and then that person sold it to another person. The ultimate owner told me the serial number was the same so it was definitely my steel. It was in very bad condition and had a lot of work done on it. I have never received one cent from Northwest airlines for either piece. I finally just chalked it up to my experience. So it cost me about $2000 but I will never ship any steel or amp again. That is the reason I attempted to sell my newer Nashville 400 locally so there would be no shipping involved. I suppose since I want to deal with somone close by there was only one legitimate person interested and he suppose to contact me today when he gets in town. Thanks for listening.
Gere

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

If the carrier company refuses to take reasonable actions to settle - can a person take them into small claims court? In what juristiction. Probably point of transfer, because that's where the transaction occurred?

If nothing else, filing a claim may light a fire under them to settle.

[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 21 July 2004 at 09:18 AM.]

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Lyle - you probably have a moral duty (at least) to Bobby to help him validate his claim - including writing up an sworn declaration.

You may also wish to supply Bobby with photographs, etc. so that Bobby has some evidenciary tools to negotiate with.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Sometimes doing the right thing hurts a bit! But your reputation is all you got. I sell a lot of stuff on Ebay and even here on the forum. It supports my addiction to steel guitar shows and G.A.S. (gear acquisition syndropme). I have had a few sells I lost money on by paying for repairs and damage claims. All in all I am still ahead of the game. I get a lot of satisfaction from a happy customer!!! My relationship with my fellow Forum members and Ebay members means a lot to me. Just my 2 cents worth!

Bobby, I think you went about this in the right manner and made a sound decision!.

Bobby Duncan · From: Pensacola, FL, USA (these days)

I do appreciate everyone's input on this. Another of many benefits we all enjoy from this wonderful Forum.
I have no trouble at all doing the right thing. I wouldn't have it any other way. This has been a valuable lesson for me tho, and it will certainly make a difference in how I approach future online transactions, particularly heavy items such as this. I'm not saying that I won't trade online, I'll just know going in that if I am the seller, I must be willing to bear the risk alone.
Thanks again to all of you.

Lyle Bradford · From: Gilbert WV USA (deceased)

My offer was rejected and I can't say i blame him. I sent $450 for the amp and S&H. I have told him i will share half of the shipping cost making it a reimbursement of $425. Do you all think this is fair? If not let me know.

Bobby Duncan · From: Pensacola, FL, USA (these days)

Let's be clear about this. The amp sold for $400.00, plus shipping. The shipping with insurance was actually $65.00. He sent me $450.00. I paid the the extra $15.00 and never even mentioned it.
I have agreed to refund the $400.00 for the price of the amp, and I don't have a problem with that, but that's not enough. He wants me to refund the shipping price as well.
Come on guys, is this the way it works??? Maybe I should throw in a pair of weekend tickets to the ISGC while I'm at it.
BD

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Yes, cost and risk of doing business. I think the lawyers call it "consequential damages".

Michael Lee Allen · From: Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois

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James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

I have had problems with just about every shipping company out there ....You have to really fight like a mad man to get your insurance money back ...I do not insure my packages any more ....I spend the money it would cost me to insure the package, and I will add EXTRA packing materials, and I will send it COD....I tell the buyer that if the shake the box and hear anything rattleing around , don't accept the package !!!....The shipper now has to return the package to the sender on THEIR DIME !!.... Would you accept a package that had tire tracks on it if you could just NOT ACCEPT the package ?

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

If I were a lawyer, I would argue that simple logic suggests that there are only two parties with any [potential] legal connection to the negligence causing the damage - that is the seller (& packager) and the carrier. The purchaser should be "held harmless" for this reason and the cost of damages resolved between those 'connected'.

I sure hope you bought insurance, otherwise your ability to receive compensation is extremely limited.

BTW - when I bought an amplifier, I waited until I had a business trip to the region where it was located, and drove 1.5 hours to meet the seller halfway for the exchange. I packaged it up leaving the handle exposed, and had the airline treat it as a special package so it wouldn't go through the baggage claim...100% perfect result and worth the wait.

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