Informing another player of bad intonation

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

While I was playing a job a couple of months ago the resident sound man paid me a nice compliment on my tuning and intonation. He said "we have a couple of guys that come in here and play steel that are so far out of intonation that they sound drunk when they are playing. You are right on." Now I was glad for the compliment, but I also was concerned for the other two players that he was talkng about. I felt bad for them. One player who I heard and I know is truly out of tune and more out of intonation to be embarrasing. Here's the question. Should I mention it to this player and risk sounding like a know it all? I feel that I should try to help other steelers any way that I can. Intonation and tuning were a big problem for me when I first started because I did not have proper instruction on dealing with parallex or the like. These players have been playing a long time, but I feel that I should say something. Am I risking something? I hope someone really tells me something if they feel my playing could improve by it. I always feel that I could learn something.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 18 March 2005 at 08:25 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 18 March 2005 at 09:26 PM.]

David Higginbotham · From: Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA

Kevin, you pose a very interesting question indeed! If properly worded and the effort is perceived as a "true attempt" to help someone, I truly believe most would be receptive to constructive criticism. I know I certainly enjoy the input from well versed and experienced players. I even go to the extent of asking for input from others. I know for a fact that the sound I am hearing near the amp and monitors are not the same as out front and I am always looking to improve. I can only accomplish this by looking up to other more informed and experienced players that may hear or see something that I don't. I am glad others have taken the time to "teach me" and considering your experience and properly suggested improvements, I think it would be welcomed by anyone wanting to improve and excel.
Dave

[This message was edited by David Higginbotham on 18 March 2005 at 07:06 PM.]

Jennings Ward · From: Edgewater, Florida, R.I.P.

PLEASE DEFINE INTONATION FOR ME.......JENNINGS

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Lonnie Portwood · From: Jacksonville, fl. USA

My friend Kevin, there is an old saying which goes something like this. " A friend oft reminded of a debt, soon becomes an enemy". Leave it be, brother. Let someone else do it! Lonnie P.

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

If these guys get hired by others, then more power to them. Don't appoint your self as an intonation policeman. It's not like they are playing out of tune on purpose. In time they will get as good as they're gonna get. No one is going to lose an eye over their intonation.
PS When you hear me play, be kind and lie. It will make me feel good.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Jennings, by intonation I mean the ability to place the bar visually and physically accurately on the fret board so that the note being played is neither overly sharp or flat of that note.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 18 March 2005 at 08:25 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 18 March 2005 at 08:26 PM.]

Rich Weiss · From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA

Well, there's Nashville intonation, and there's real world intonation. I sometimes like to hear the steel played imperfectly. It gives the music more character. Especially in alt. country

The only thing I know that will make a steel player take note of his playing is for him to hear himself recorded. That's the reality check that counts.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

This is a very tough question. There are no hard and fast rules here, but my general rule is to not volunteer such information unless this is a very close associate or friend. Even then, I would think about it long and hard. Especially with friends, there's no point in giving feedback if it won't help, or worse, might hurt or seriously discourage them.

With that said, if the reviewer was someone known to me to have real expertise, I personally would want to be told, very privately, nicely, and in a constructive way, that my intonation was seriously out. This would be even more welcome if they had suggestions about how to help. But in a situation like this, I will usually ask for honest feedback.

Sometimes a musician I know will ask me for brutally honest feedback about something. I still argue that it's up to me to assess whether I think they can really handle it or not, but I may tell them in that case. Ultimately, for me, I have to know somebody well enough to assess whether they can handle this type of feedback before I'll say a word.

A final exception: If I'm playing in a band with somebody, I sometimes will pull them aside, again privately, and discuss issues like this with them. Again, this can be risky, and I've gummed up some bands by doing this. But in that case, if I have to walk on eggs over somebody's poor playing, I'd rather not be there.

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

If you say something, they'll probably resent you for it. That's just human nature.

Rich is right - hearing a recording of one's playing is the best intonation monitor. If that doesn't work, the cat has a tin ear anyway and no amount of commenting will help.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Kevin.. tough call brother.. I would advise you to keep your peace in this case. If these gents have been at it a long time, it may be that the die is cast.. they are set in thier ways.
Of course it is up to you,but I think maybe it may be better to bite your tongue on this one... ...None of us needs any more enemies than we already have. bob

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Well nobody really likes to hear from someone; that they are out-of-tune or too loud or their Tone is bad or they are playing it wrong.
So with that being said; the best comment I ever got was from my best friend and mentor, Gary Carpenter.
This was about 10 or so years ago; and I have been playing sometime already and recorded quite a bit and was a fairly confident Steel player. But one night we set up together and played Twin steels with a band as we like to do; and played some cool stuff and we finished one song with the last chord and he leaned over and pushed my bar with his right hand as he was still sustaining his chord with his left hand and said: "now doesn't that sound better???"..ha
He then said I had some intonation problems that need to be corrected and taught me how to work with a "single note fixed Tone" and that my friends was the single best thing I was ever taught. I've heard recordings of myself previous to that; and thought I sounded in-tune; but after I worked very hard on "Hearing intonation"; then those things from the past sounded "Out-of-Tune" to me> So you actually may not hear your intonation is bad; unless you work on perfecting your intonation. I passed along that info to many others and to my friend Bob Hoffner; and he has even made a "Intonation practice" CD out of the ideas.
So I think it is important to pass along something learned; and wheather or not someone wants to hear the suggestion; is up to them, but we are responsible for helping others. It's not a "Ego" thing; it's just simply pass along information and giving the folks a chance to decipher for themselfs. You will feel good that you did it and you can't control how anyone responds; as that is their character they have to deal with.
Thems my two-cents; and I still thank Carp every now and then for the great advice on that and the wonderful inspiration he has been to me with many many things in life.
Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 18 March 2005 at 09:41 PM.]

Robert Porri · From: Windsor, Connecticut, USA

Funny Ricky, I was working on finding this link when you posted.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum18/HTML/000090.html

I was thinking there might be a tactful way to maybe check this CD out yourself Kevin and then lay in on the players in question if you had a desire to do so.

By this, I do mean in a way that would draw someone into a friendly light conversation, maybe about things each has used. You can find something to compliment anyone about also. Maybe I'm thinking about this as a new player who doesn't have a lot of reason to be offended if someone nudged me a bit about something.

Bob P.

[This message was edited by Robert Porri on 18 March 2005 at 11:14 PM.]

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Lay that sucker low. Maybe he'll quit and you'll have less competition.

Another option might be to encourage him to record himself live (with his band). You could feed him a line about "how much this helped you" without letting on that you're on to him.
I hope that this thread wasn't inspired by me. I would want to be told. I can take it. Hear that, Zirbel?

[This message was edited by Henry Nagle on 18 March 2005 at 10:52 PM.]

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I must say, what Ricky said DOES sound good,and may work, BUT in his case it was a close friend and mentor.. If Kevin is a good friend to either of these guys,he may be doing them a favor as was the case in Rick's post.... however,if they are merely guys he knows but is not very close with,it is really a touchy situation that would really have to be thought about..

He might make enemies,or at least be thought of as a self righteous snob.. I dunno, I would let it go, but I'm a big chicken! bob

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

My initial thought on this is no. Only offer advice in this area if they specifically ask for it. If they say "hey it sounded weird to me tonight, did I sound out of tune to you?" Then maybe say something like "it did sound like you were having some trouble up there" and possibly offer advice at that point. Other than that, I would say the only correct time to mention it would be if they're hiring you to be their teacher. If playing in an on-going band situation and not just a one-niter, then I think it's appropriate to delicately discuss tuning and intonation problems, to try to make the band sound as good as possible. If I was having intonation problems that night, chances are I wouldn't want to be reminded of it. If I always play out of tune, but aren't aware of it, I again wouldn't want to hear it unless it was from my designated teacher or from a band member who knew I could actually do something about it right then & there. If someone posts a link to a musical piece they recorded and asks for candid advice & suggestions, then they're inviting a critique on intonation and possibly solicitations from teachers, but otherwise, I'd say leave it alone. -- Marc

richard burton · From: Britain

Playing out of tune didn't hurt 'The best pedal steel player in the world'......
Jerry Garcia.

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

I would usually open the conversation with a question like,
" Were you having problems with the monitoring tonight?"
Most people will say "Yes" (!)
"There were a few bits where it sounded as if you couldn't hear your steel (or Vocals or Fiddle or Trombone) too well"
If they say "No. It sounded fine to me"
then that would be the time to drop the subject- the answer would show that the problem was pitch perception and the whole thing would get personal very quickly. Otherwise, all the other suggestions are pretty much the way to go.

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Cheers!
Dave

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I'm thinking that if you can't HEAR that you are not quite in tune or that you may be "PITCHY" there may be something else going on. And there are plenty of reasons why this can happen...

Personally I think the "PITCHY" thing is the most difficult to overcome and requires in my view a practice routine with a focus on this , and this alone.

I think it is wise to tell your friend that he has a PITCHY thing going on. IF know one tells him he may never be aware and may never work to correct it.BUT..I wouldn't go on the comments from the sound guy, I would hear it first hand and advise..this is not something you want to do as "HEAR SAY"...

2 or 3 years back I posted a clip up here as I was cleaning the cobwebs off my my Steel playing and I received a comment from none other than Ricky Davis which did 2 things, Ricky mentioned that my playing was getting there,the phrasing was nice, interesting, all the good stuff, then he also mentioned that I had a slight PITCHY thing going on...

That was more important than the actual music comments..

If he is a friend, I would tell him... I would like to be told if it was me..and I was !

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 19 March 2005 at 02:10 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 19 March 2005 at 07:25 AM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I wouldn't.

My ear is only critical of what I am playing to a great degree.

I'm very easily entertained.

Intonation is only one of the aspects of playing. If nothing else, if I'm ever paid a compliment like the one you mention, I know I am on the right track, and say no more.

Constructive criticism is very enfuriating to egomanics, and they often hide this trait very well, even from themselves.

I don't like it myself, though I don't consider myself one.

EJL

Willis Vanderberg · From: Petoskey Mi

I usually tell them my story..I sent for Bob Hoffners recording and lo...I was playing flat most of the time..
I think we all need to run a little check on our music from time to time.
This also pointed out , how far out of tune the rest of the band is..lol

Old Bud

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

Kevin, If you are not having to play music with the guys I think I would let it slide. Someone else hired them and they should be the one responsible. I played last Saturday with a fiddle player I have known for years. He can play a variety of instruments but the fiddle was flat and I never saw him use a tuner on anything. I will say just because an individual can play a variety of instruments does not make him a good musician. I can cook a variety of foods but I am no great cook to say the least. Sorry about the comparison. I just get tired of hearing people tell me about someone who can play 6 different instruments but they are not solid on any of them.

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Kevin, I dare say this is the first really new topic I've seen posted in a long time! Great question!
My take on this is, if the "defect" that needs to be corrected is something that can truly be fixed by telling the player, such as "You were a little too loud" or "You had too much reverb", then by all means, I would share that info.
On the other hand, to mention intonation or anything else strictly dependent on skill, is pointless, since there is not much the player will be able to do to correct it.
Like someone said, most of these guys are set in their ways, and an unsolicited comment about their playing which they cannot readily fix, will only fall on deaf ears..so to speak.

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

This dilema takes on an added dimension when it's someone in your own band who has the intonation problem. I know a six string guitar player who has the most annoying habit of bending his strings out of tune. It isn't some stylistic thing he has going on, he just has no sense of how far to bend the string to hit the right pitch. I've often wanted to point it out to him but it doesn't seem appropriate. For one thing I'm a very amateurish steel player and I'm still working on my own intonation which comes and goes to an extent. But I like to think that at least I'm aware of the issue and trying to improve. Nonetheless, to take the other guy to task over his 'outoftunedness' would just cause hard feelings and since we're only weekend warriors anyhow, I'll leave it alone.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

My take on the issue:

If it's a member of your own band, then by all means the issue needs to be addressed diplomatically and soon, before it gets to the point where frustration and anger take over and things are said that shouldn't be. The subject should be broached with helpful suggestions and problem solving rather than ultimatums. Fingers pointed in scorn have a way of coming around and poking the accuser in the ass eventually.

If the offender isn't in your band and doesn't ask the question, it's none of your business and professional courtesy would suggest staying out of it.

Just MHO...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 19 March 2005 at 05:27 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Isn't this the "Don't ask...don't tell" subject?

This is, after all, the most difficult and important aspect of steel playing. It's also why some non-players call the steel a "whiny" instrument, and why some players get called "bad tone" players by other players. In some cases, it's actually caused by tuners. Some players believe tuners are never wrong, and blindly take someone else's tuning settings (tempers) as completely gospel. I recommend tuning only one string with the tuner, and then tuning everything else by ear. That kinda forces you to learn to actually listen to the note, rather than just go blindly tuning to some number.

As far as saying something, it's a delicate subject to broach, and my own personal guideline has always been to mention it to a beginning player, but not to mention it to a seasoned, or professional, player.

Many people don't want to hear the truth, nowadays. Wifey calls my most significant character trait "brutal honesty". I'm trying to change that, but it's slow going.

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