Age old question: TUNING?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

On Red Foley's old Decca record of "Tennessee
Border".....the melodic sounds of steelman Billy Robinson can be heard from beginning to end.

At several points in the recording, you can hear Billy holding a nice chord.....that to me, sounds horribly "out of tune".

This is not a criticism in any way of Billy's great playing but rather: Is this an example of what one hears WHEN.....they tune straight up with an electronic tuner without any sharps or flats being factored in? OR, is this merely an example of what can happen during studio work that adversely affects, even the greatest of steel players?

Just need to know the answer to this perplexing and lingering question.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I don't know Ray. I remember the song well and I remember some of what Billy did on the record. but I do not remember his holding a chord that sounded out of tune.

I will tell you this, when one tunes straight up (remember when that record was cut, tuners had not even been invented), there ARE definitely intervals and chords that CAN sound "horribly out of tune", IF, your ears are "cultured" to JI (tuning the beats out.

Interestingly, there are many many musicians all over the world that do not hear them as out of tune, rather they hear the way most steel players tune as "flat". Of course some of them are not aware that it is our thirds that are way flat of straight up. So the entire chord sounds flat to them.

Again, I do not recall the chord you are talking about. I am going to see if the "Record Lady" has that recording and give it a listen.

carl

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

THANKS for your response. I was listening to this earlier in the day while in the car. I believe the chord I'm referring to, was in the vicinity of his "solo" part; at the end of it possibly???? It sounds like his 4th string is considerably FLAT! Not a desireable sound, to say the least. HOT TV lights and air conditioning used to do that to me a lot.

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

Ray, Let us remember that being in tune is "RELATIVE". I have been in tune and another out-of tune instument(especially a bass) can make me sound out of tune.
I suppose you are saying that one of his strings is out of tune with the others. In that case he would be out of tune.
I have found myself trying to slide into tune with another instrument. It is best described as a MESS.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

If the chord on the recording is indeed out of tune (I have not heard this recording) then:
1. The person who produced the record did not have enough musical sense to hear the intonation and have it corrected.

2. Billy R. was not able to play the chord in tune possibly due to some technical problem with the instrument or due to the fact that he may have thought he WAS in tune.

3. During playback, no one actually thought the chord was out of tune enough to matter to the audience that would purchase the record.

Number 3 seems fine to me since I remember the days when you did not record multitrack and recordings went out "warts and all".
There were probably better things that happened during this particular take that caused the producer to pick this one as the final take used for the pressing and not discarded just because of some intonation in a steel part. Happened all the time in the recording world prior to multi track recording and auto pitch control. If the star sang a great track then that was more important than anything else.

Dave Burr · From: League City, TX

Give a listen: http://recordlady.webgcs.com/main2.htm (Real Country Page 2 Cool

I hear what Ray is talking about and it is quite dissonant to my ears as well. It is the last chord strum of the solo at about the 55 second mark of the song. Billy played quite beautifully throughout this song. I especially love the lick towards the end at about the 2:26 mark. What a wonderful player!

Respectfully,
Dave Burr

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Thanks Dave for posting that link. I again believe BR is tuning ET; or at least near it. I believe I hear it in other places also on that recording.

The following has nothing to do with the subject of this thread; so Ray forgive if you will.

I would like to thank Dave even more for clearing something up that has perplexed me for 7 yrs now.

I grew up believing that Red Foley's classic "Tennnessee Border" featured Jerry Byrd. In fact there was no doubt in my mind it was indeed JB.

Then when I asked Billy Robinson to play at the Steel Guitar show in Altanta in '97, he graciously accepted; and sent me all the recordings he was on. In that list he included the subject song.

I could not believe it. So I called Billy and we talked at length about it. So, I thought, "ya live an learn".

When I linked to the Record Lady's sight and listen to that recording, I now see what happened. That recording is not what I heard. It is indeed Billy. But there maybe a recording somewhere with Jerry on it.

OR....I am hearing it in my head from a "Prince Albert" live broadcast from WSM where Jerry Byrd is backing Red as he sings that classic song. I can hear every note distintly. IN fact, I am almost positive that there is a recording with Jerry on it, since I believe that is how I learned it. Maybe not.

But I now realize what happened to my brain. Incidently, none of the above should ever be construed that Billy Robinson is not a great player, because he is. But the two of them did play differently.

Thanks Dave (and Ray) for clearing it up for me,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 July 2004 at 07:49 AM.]

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Well that silly organ doesn't help matters one bit!

Great steel playing. I do hear the tuning issue Ray mentions. I think the steel's JI tuning is clashing with the organ's more equal tempered tuning.

The solution of course would have been to lose that lousy organ! -GV

[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 13 July 2004 at 07:50 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, to be honest, the whole thing sounds a little "pitchy" to me, but when listening to old rcordings, I take that kind of stuff into account. Some of the old guitars were a real bear to tune, and the strings went up and down in "jumps", rather than smoothly, as they do now when the tuning keys are turned. (The old-timers on the Forum will remember this characteristic, I'm sure.) It's funny, but when an instrumentalist sounds "out of tune", most everyone gets kinda critical. However, when it's a famous singer that's out of tune (like Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, or even Frank Sinatra), we are much more gracious, and write it off as that singer's particular "style".

Anyone else notice that?

Nah!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 13 July 2004 at 08:35 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I didn't notice any out of tune chords. I'm just astonished that Billy Robinson is ripping through those parallel third lines at that tempo without pedals. What an incredible player!!

Ray, where is the chord that sounds out of tune to you?

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

David Doggett · Posted 13 Jul 2004 10:08 am

I didn't hear it as a JI or ET thing. It sounded like to me Billy was tuned a little flat of the bass and organ. He mostly compensates nicely for it, but on some notes you can hear him hit right on the fret, which is slightly flat, and then slide up a little to a better pitch, or maybe even angle his bar a little. I'll bet they just caught him a little flat overall on the cut and he didn't have time to tune up. Haven't we all been there? Your eye reflexes keep you hitting on the frets as usual. Your ear keeps making you jump up a little, but for that first split second you're off.

Burton Lee · From: Denton, Texas, USA

I posted this big ET/JI tuning thing that's been boiling up in me and then realized this thread is really about something totally different. I'll save it for another time.

Burton

[This message was edited by Burton Lee on 13 July 2004 at 11:44 AM.]

Jussi Huhtakangas · From: Helsinki, Finland

As in all forms of art, technical perfection alone doesn't make a great performance. The tune has long been my favorite Foley song and I never paid attention to this subject. I do hear the "dissonant" lick at the end of the solo and I believe it's just an off-key bar slant at the end of a great solo. Another thing which might add some overall pitchy feeling is the fact that it's an old recording, in most cases reprinted from an old 78. Many times when these records were pressed they came out as little off-centered ( the hole in the middle was not exactly in the middle ) causing a slight wow. Long sustaining instruments, such as steel guitar, are the first ones to sound off-key on records like that.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Thanks ALL for taking the time to share your views and comments. I will state once again, THIS IS NOT a criticism of Billy Robinson or his playing. He's truly one of the nicest people I've ever met! He is one fine player, when only a kid and now too, during his later years in music. He has forgotten more than I'll ever be able to learn.
On the intro, upon completion, he rolls a big fat chord....... One string, 4th string maye????.......is horribly flat! It also shows up in that last measure prior to his last chord played. Then again, when he rolls the chord AT THE END of his first solo.
This was not a post to pick apart Billy or his playing, but by using this example, I just wanted to know if this was one of those now widely accepted, new fandangled tuning tolerances that justify playing OUT OF TUNE or blaming OWEN BRADLEY and his terrific organ work. As big and powerful a machine as Owen was playing, he could have blown away this little five piece, folk music group, string group. BUT, that is better left to guys playing lead-guitars, drums and keyboards, right? THANKS AGAIN, all!

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Carl Dixon: Might you have been thinking about "Tennessee Border #2"?????

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ray,

I only knew of one. But then again that was a very long time ago. The only thing I DO know is, the recording I heard I am convinced is Jerry Byrd.

Thanks for asking dear friend,

carl

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