Did Mom of Toilet murder sustain?

Malcolm Leonard · From: Rhode Island, USA

As far as I know all those old lap steels that look like their bodies were covered with mutli-colored plastic guitar pick material that had been fed on steroids actually *were* covered in plastic.
Wouldn't the plastic tend to kill the sweet,natural wood sustain?
Malcolm

Mike D · From: Phx, Az

Apparently not.

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Half-assed bottleneck and lap slide player. Full-assed Builder of resonator instruments.

Mark Vinbury · From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA

Can't imagine it is any worse than Formica and contact cement or the plastic/"lacquer"coatings
used these days.

Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

You're assuming that the wood used in the MOTS covered steels had any sort of sustain to begin with. My first Magnatone was made of the lightest wood possible and was not naturally resonant.

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Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Fortunately, those mother of toilet seat coverings came at an early time when there was not many options. So, for their era, who cared whether they sustained...the only consideration was whether the pick-up worked.

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Mike D · From: Phx, Az

I think that the whole 'wood theory' pertaining to electric guitars is completely overrated.
I recently got an old Tiesco electric, it's got a particle board (veneered) body and neck made up of 1/16" lamintes. Acoustically it's amazing loud and can easily be played unplugged while watching TV. It also sounds good plugged in.
When people ask me what to use in an electric I tell them to use something pretty.

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Half-assed bottleneck and lap slide player. Full-assed Builder of resonator instruments.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Back in 1948, when I was 11-yrs. old I had my first 6-str. steel; a Supro, Mother of Toilet~Seat. Heck, at that age, I didn't even know what the word ‘Sustain’ meant! But, I could hear that C6 sounded better than High-Bass A-Tuning, to my ears! Finish and Tunings just grew from that point on, until today!

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“Big John” Bechtel
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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I play an Academy (Rickenbacker) made of Bakelite, aka "plastic". No wood at all.

It'll sustain for about a week and a half.

Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I keep reading Forum threads that question whether certain materials such as mica, lacquer, varnish, mother of pearl, mother of toilet seat, etc. affect the “sustain” of a steel guitar. Ladies and gentlemen, the whole issue of “sustain” is a matter of very, very elementary physics. I do not intend for this post to offend anyone in any way. I am only posting it as an informational item, and I hope it will be accepted as that. I am in no way the world’s greatest “expert” on steel guitar design, but during the course of my formal education I have received from highly competent people instructions in the physics of musical instruments. So, in an effort to clear up some possible misconceptions (mainly for the less experienced steel guitarists) I am posting the following somewhat simplified, non-mathematical explanation of what does or does not affect “sustain” in a steel guitar.

(1) A string vibrates because we impart energy into it by plucking it.

(2) The string will continue to vibrate until all of the energy imparted to it has dissipated (i.e., until it has lost all of the energy for one reason or another.)

(3) The string can lose its energy in several ways, the four most common of which are:

(a) energy can be used up when it is converted into heat due to friction between the molecules within the string;

(b) energy can be transferred to the air [or other such medium] in which the string is placed as the mechanical vibrations are transferred to heat by exciting the molecules of the surrounding medium;

(c) energy can be used by the string to resist the “pull” or “push” of the magnetic field created by the magnets in the pickups;

(d) the energy in the vibrating string can be used up as it is imparted to the points that suspend the string at each end [i.e, the bridge and nut or bridge and tone bar].

(4) There is little than can be done about (a), (b), or (c) – which cause only a very small part of the total loss of energy.

(5) The largest and most important place where energy is lost from the vibrating string is in (d) above: the two ends of the vibrating portion of the string.

Now, for an acoustic guitar [or other acoustic instrument] we want a lot of energy to transfer into the hollow body of the instrument so that it will cause the top of the instrument to vibrate, which – in turn – will cause sound waves in the air. In this case, the vibration of the bridge [being located on a flexible surface] absorbs the string’s energy vary rapidly, causing faster “decay” of the string’s energy – so there isn’t much of that magic term, “SUSTAIN” in an acoustic instrument.

An electric steel guitar is not an acoustic instrument, so we don’t want any more of the string’s energy transferred to the bridge or nut or tone bar than is absolutely necessary. The way to do this is to have a bridge, nut and bar that are very difficult to be moved by the vibrating string. If the bridge, nut or bar cannot be moved in any amount by the vibrating string, all of the string’s energy will be reflected back into the string and the standing wave in the string will continue with very little decay – thus giving it a greater ability to sustain its vibrations. In a nutshell, we want these three items to be as close to an “infinite mass” as possible so they cannot be moved by the vibrating string. The way to accomplish this is to make the “effective mass” of the three items as great as possible. Unless we want to build a steel guitar that is unreasonably heavy (in an attempt to get as close as possible to the ideal “infinite” mass, then we must make the body as stiff as possible. The stiffer the body, the greater will be the effective mass of the bridge and nut. (It is for the same reason that a heavier bar gives more sustain than a light bar.)

So, what this all boils down to is: the heavier and stiffer the body, the longer the sustain. Regardless of the material from which the body is made, it is weight and stiffness that count. Different builders have used different methods to maximize the mass and stiffness. Some have used very dense and heavy wood. Others have used metal such as aluminum. Still others have taken advantage of today’s technology by using new materials such as carbon fiber. Some have even designed systems of braces that stiffen the body. And some have used combinations of the above methods.

For some reason, many steel guitarists -– particularly those who are somewhat new to the steel guitar -- appear to believe there is some kind of black magic that makes the sustain of his or her instrument better than the others -– so we read over and over and over questions and statements regarding the effect of the finish material and other elements on the sustain of the steel guitar.

One can simulate greater sustain by using a very “live” or “hot” pickup and increasing the volume as the string vibrations decay -- but I maintain that the only thing that matters as far as true sustain is concerned is the effective mass of the bridge, nut and bar.

All of the above applies to pedal and non-pedal steel guitars. However, for pedal guitars a side bonus is realized when stiffness is used as a part of the design equation: increasing the stiffness of the body can lessen that portion of “cabinet drop” that results from the flexing of the body.

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[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 14 July 2005 at 09:52 AM.]

Zayit · From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Roy said: "...increasing the stiffness of the body can lessen that portion of “cabinet drop” that results from the flexing of the body..."

Cabinet drop eh? So thats whats wrong with my playing! I've been telling my wife for years that its not the scale length that matters, but stiffness & bar weight!

Joseph Rush Wills · From: New Jersey, USA

The first resonator guitar I got is a Gretch F-hole with mother-of-toilet seat on the fretboard and headstock. As old as it is, I'm the 2nd owner.
Dick Blattenberger regrets selling the one he had, and to hang on to mine, and Mike Auldrige told me NEVER to sell it...can't disobey either of those guys!

Russ Young · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

My first resonator had a little more MOTS than your Gretsch:

It was nondescript wood covered in MOTS with a small (8.25") cone ... and surprisingly good sustain.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Here's a cut from my favorite lap ateel, an English Electronics (Valco/Supro) with a fabulous MOTS finish. I don't think that steel haa any sustain problems. Song for Martin

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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Dan, that is the sweetest version I've heard. It sounds just like the soul of the South.
No sustain problems there.

I've often wondered why a steel guitar is called a steel when it's made of wood, bakelite, or what have you, but Roy's basic principles cleared up my definition problem of that.

Bernard Beck · From: Paris France

Well, I was very happy to read Roy's explanation about the vibrating string issue.
It should be always remembered.
And after that, beauty to the eyes and to the ears certainly counts a lot, and probably a lot more, when it comes to the choice of an instrument.
Bernard

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Thanks, Charlie! To answer your question, it's called the steel guitar because it's played with a steel.

(BTW that version was two tracks overdubbed).

Roy Ayres · From: Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Dan Tyack,
That is beautiful -- and unbelievable sustain for a resonator guitar.

Russ Young,
I often hear or read "put downs" about MOTS -- but that guitar of yours should make every MOTS opponent re-think their opinions.

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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
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Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Thanks, Roy, but that cut wasn't recorded with the guitar in the picture. It's a pretty standard Supro solid body guitar, although long scale (it's 25 1/2"). It does ring out pretty good, but a lot of that is due to the hot Supro/Valco pickup.

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www.tyack.com

Bill Creller · From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)

I agree with Mike D that the type of wood used is much over rated. The old Bronsons, and Magnatones, etc prove that. The stiffness and bridge/nut combinations seem to be the key to tone as well as sustain. I recently modified a post-war bakelite six to a seven string, and had to put the strings thru the body. When I removed the bracket at the back end of the guitar, I found that there was a raised portion, about 3/32 high, thatseemed to be where the factory had changed the mold from a built-in bridge to just a flat raised area. My best way to deal with it was to mill it flush with the rest of the body and put a polished stainless steel plate over it, from under the bridge to beyond where the string-thru holes went thru. The surprise came when I decided to use some epoxy under the plate when I attached it with some flush screws. That thing had tone I couldn't believe.
So I pulled my own guitar apart and epoxied the same type of plate I had used on the customer's guitar, and wow!!, what a difference in tone and sustain. My plate was originally held in place with just the bridge and it's two screws. The area where the strings go thru the body obviously needs to be solid,like it would on a vintage bakelite without any plate etc on the top. So, the attach points for the strings seem to require a solid point as well as the bridge and nut.

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