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Topic: Dude, Where's My Tone? |
Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 8:25 am |
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I had a gig on Saturday night with a band that I sit in with from time to time. I could not get my tone to save my life and I am trying to put together the variables that led me to have such an off night...
My tone lacked any sparkle or ability to cut through... MUDDY!
The lead guitarist after the gig commented that my tone was "Lap Steel through a small amp" sounding...
My Set Up:
Sho-Bud Pro II Custom > Goodrich L-120 > 1974 Vibrosonic W/ Weber Cali 15.
Here are some variables:
A) The band played louder than usual, I usually keep my amp volume around 5-6 and I had it at 7.
B) I replaced a scratchy Clarostat 500K J-taper Pot with a known good one last week.
C) Throughout the evening, I kept tweaking my High Tone pot up on the amp with no results.
D) My Volume pedal was acting more like a Wha-wha/tone pedal. I was only getting any clarity when the pedal was dimed.
E) I was playing tele through the amp yesterday and noticed one of the four 6l6's is glowing quite blue.
So, I am wondering if I have a problem with my amp or Volume Pedal? Did I rewire my Volume pedal wrong? Is my amp going south on me?
Could it be my pick-ups on the old 'Bud are starting to lose their tone?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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www.bigsmokey.com
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 8:30 am
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Surely you didn't have the input/outputs reversed in the volume pedal, did you?
Jerry |
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 8:43 am
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| You know, I didn't check that but that could have easily been a culprit, couldn't it!?! |
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Dave Van Allen
From:
Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 8:44 am
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troubleshooting 101: isolating the problem is the first step to a solution
check cables used with guitar and vol pedal with known good guitar and amp to eliminate them as a cause
try a single known good cable from guitar to suspect amp bypassing vol pedal
if symptoms are same, try guitar with different known good amp
if symptoms same check pickups/solder/connexions
if guitar sounds better thru other amp, then check first amp
if guitar sounds good with a single cable to first amp, then suspect vol pedal, potentiometer, solder, jack wiring etc...
another suspect is bad wiring in the venue... nobody else had similar issues? |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 9:49 am
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| Bypass the pedal and plug directly into the amp. That will eliminate the pedal as a possible problem. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 9:51 am
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| I can't begin to tell about the gigs where my steel has been horribly distorted, muddy, thin, AWFUL in every way.. and then the next week it was back to the tone I know and love.... well,, tolerate anyway..... check everything dva mentioned, but I would bet the venue had some "tone sucking" attributes.... happens all the time.. |
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Dave White
From:
Fullerton, California USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 10:49 am
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| I played drums professionally for many years a while back, and I know the "tone-sucking" problems of different venues. The accoustic properties of the room or stage has a lot to do with how you sound. Some guitar and keyboard players I knew got around this problem by getting their amps off the floor, using chairs or tables to elevate them--this would help eliminate some of the muddiness of the sound. Some guys carry rack-mounted graphic equalizers with them to remove the unwanted tones and boost the ones they wanted. It's very difficult to control the accoustics and the way your equipment sounds when you have to deal with so many different types of rooms, walls, ceilings, etc. That may have been one of the problems in this case. [This message was edited by Dave White on 28 November 2005 at 10:51 AM.] |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 10:56 am
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My first guess is that the VP was wired backwards, either internally or you had the cords backwards. That can suck tone in a major way as you back down from full. It can also make the volume taper all whacked.
The pot's wiper (center tab) should go to the output jack going to the amp.
Brad
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 11:04 am
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Brad-
I did a hasty pot-switch on my Goodrich last week. I'll go back and re-check my wiring.... |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 12:20 pm
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Jerry's response was my very first thought too.
We are all subject to the bad night/bad ears/bad mojo/bad sound thing but your problem sounds tangible and I imagine you will track it down. Before doing anything with the internal wiring on the pedal, just for giggles try to recreate the reversed in/out wire scenario and see if it duplicates your sound woes from the other night. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 3:22 pm
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I'd also suspect a reverse-wired volume pot.
But I would also check amp bias immediately. That *one* blue tube is a dead giveaway something is off-center (tubes are often blue, but when only one is something is usually amiss if they are a matched set). I'd check it with a Bias Rite, Bias King or something like that, and if the bias is off by more than 10% between tubes pull the chassis and check the plate voltages. If they pan out, replace the tubes and rebias the amp.
Also - if that amp has never had the bias cap and filter caps replaced, it's WAY overdue. Get it done now before you lose the output transfomer...and about $150-200, PLUS the caps! |
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 3:28 pm
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Thanks Jim-
The amp has been re-capped and given a clean bill of health about a year ago, but I have put some mileage on it since then...
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 4:13 pm
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| Hmm - back to the pedal (run straight into the amp to test) or a tube problem then. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 4:26 pm
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There's a handy little device called a push/pull that used to be made by Emmons that 100% takes care of any "tone sucking" problem.... -L-
Better go now, all in fun! :- ) |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 5:07 pm
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| Quote: |
| I could not get my tone to save my life and I am trying to put together the variables that led me to have such an off night ... The band played louder than usual, I usually keep my amp volume around 5-6 and I had it at 7. |
I had exactly the same experience last Friday night - we had a loud crowd and the boys just wanted to crank it. All the issues that have been mentioned are possible and need to be ruled out. But on my Friday gig, I'm confident that the louder overall volume plus crowd noise was the main culprit - the same rig sounds fine now. On my tube amps, the difference in tone between 5 and 7 is huge, and I was running on 8. At 5, I have reserve power, and there's plenty of sparkle. At 7 and up, my tube amps are getting pretty gritty and midrangey. I have never found that any amount of EQ really fixes this. If I pull a lot of mids out, it just sounds thin and gritty.
I think I just needed my Session 500 that night. I hope the boys understand what that means - 250 watts of clean juice, and ... stand back. 
Myself, I'd rather just cut the stage volume back. IMO, there's no reason to have a killing stage volume - that is what the front-of-house PA is for - get the sound out to the crowd. Plus, my experience is that the crowd is noisier when the band is loud. But this solution requires the whole band to agree.
Another issue sometimes caused by the band being too loud - the AC voltage supply gets loaded down and the supply voltage drops. I've been on gigs where the bass was really loud, and every time he hit a really loud, sustained note, I could here my own note start to crackle. I hooked up an AC voltmeter one time to the supply voltage - it was going all over the place - down to 85 or 90 VAC. Nothing's going to sound good like that. I often use a Furman AR-1215 Voltage Regulator - not usually for this small club gig, but maybe that was part of my problem Friday. |
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Mark Fasbender
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 5:31 pm
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You could have had very low voltage at the outlet. That sounds bad as a general rule.
I vote for the VP as the culprit. Do you 3 cord?
------------------
Got Twang ?
Mark
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Michael Dene
From:
Gippsland,Victoria, Australia
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 5:49 pm
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Last week I changed the pot in my volume pedal and the tone of my guitar changed dramatically, ... fortunately for the better!!
The old pot was (I thought) working fine ... I just wanted to test out the new pot.
I have recently added the factory ModKit to my Session 500 and only now realise how good the upgrade was!!!
Point is ... something as basic as a volume pedal pot can make such a difference. 
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Michael
Emmons LeGrande II D10
Fender Artist S10
Peavey Session 500
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 28 Nov 2005 7:32 pm
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Dang!
I rewired my pot wrong!
I thought that I noted where the leads go , I guess I got confused!
I know from this post that the middle needs to go to the amp jack, what about the two leads on either side?
Does anyone have a goodrich 120 schematic??
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 29 Nov 2005 2:18 am
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not to worry..draw a picture, place it in your pac-a-seat..
you will never have to LEARN this again...
Pencil and paper, still an amzing discovery... |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 29 Nov 2005 5:29 am
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| Once, long ago, I drew a simple wiring diagram on the inside of the bottom cover of my volume pedal. Never had a problem since .... |
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 29 Nov 2005 8:13 am
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Bob, please close.
Thanks to all who helped. |
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