Would you play through a 3" speaker?

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Well this weekend I am going to play through 2 of them in a Fostex SPA-111 100watt powered monitor unit, mounted on a mic stand.

If my sound man hears any steel from the stage he assumes it is covering the room, it is not. So I am going to hide this unit behind the big speaker mains, point it at me, turn down, mic it and see what happens.

This little unit sounds great, gives me a hard low end and is not shrill in the high end. Since I do not need to cover the room from my location on the stage maybe I will get even more coverage through the mains.

He sits right in line with me so what he hears is not a true indication of the whole room. I just hate it when players come to see me and I can not be heard. I turn way down to get out of the way of the guitar player and his vocals, my Webb is on 2.

If this does not work my options are to turn up and blow or quit playing. Stand by and save your money good equipment might just be available soon. I get tired of packing all my great gear to the gig and end up sounding like a transitor radio in the middle of a surround sound system.

Larry Behm

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Larry, how do you set up your amp? Is it up on a chair or crate? Is it on the floor? Do you angle it up towards you?

I have a Webb and often I am told to turn down. I swapped out the 4 ohm E130 for an 8 ohm K130 and it warmed the sound up a bit. I can get sweeter tones at lower volumes, plus, if I am being put through the PA I try to angle my amp so it's not directed at anyone, especially the sound man or the singers.

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Dave Zirbel-
Sho-Bud Super Pro, 8 x 5, ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, Dobro Cyclops reissue, 1967 Fender Telecaster, Webb 6-14E, Fender Super Reverb
The Mother Truckers

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I have done everything over my 32 years of gigging.

Larry

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

I hear ya' on this one, Larry.

No matter what you do, it all comes down to one thing: If the soundman wants you to be heard out front, you will. If he doesn't, he'll continue to tell you to turn down 'cause you're too loud. And/or, he'll pull back your channel fader on the board.

It seems there are way too few sound men that understand and appreciate the dynamics of a steel guitar in a live mix.

Best of luck with your delema.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Oh, and one more thing: Way too many sound men forget the fact the whole room hears the show the way THEY (the sound men) want it. They need to remember their job is to let the audience hear the show the way the BAND want's it to be. Too often, there is a world of difference between what the soundman thinks the band needs and what the band wants.

(I'll get down offa the soap box, now)

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 28 April 2004 at 06:20 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

"Sound men" are the absolute bane of just about any amateur group! IMHO, if you're playing in a small venue (audience less than 500 people), they're totally unnessary.

If I go into a club with a 5-piece band, and they have a "sound man" with a 32-channel (or larger) board, I pretty much know what to expect. (And it ain't good.)

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Larry,
You might try a POD type modeling amp with no speakers.
Just run direct to the board and see how your Way-Too-Loud Man handles it.

Monitor yourself with the Fostex.

In all honesty, I don't know why you guys use a soundman. He has you guys way too loud out front, and IMHO, does nothing that you couldn't do yourselves without him.
Something to think about.

My only other reccomendation is to record your gig with a live mic at the soundboard, then play it back to the soundman, pointing out exactly where you think the steel is too low in the mix. Then record again the next night to see if he has fixed it.
Play it for the whole band to see if they agree.
Also, bring a recording of something you think is representative of how loud the steel should be in the mix.

Or, you could go another route...
Get a pair of Pro-Musicians ear plugs, two amps in stereo, and play at an insanly loud volume ensuring that everybody in the room can hear the steel just fine.
It's what I call the "Soundman Over-Ride" method.

In my expierience, most soundmen don't know what the steel is supposed to sound like.
They could have it completely turned off, and would not even realize it, because they don't miss it.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 28 April 2004 at 06:27 PM.]

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

Larry, have you thought about a "rubber hose" for the soundman? Not really, well maybe?

Actually, you might see if David Wright would be interested in being your roadie for a night.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 28 April 2004 at 12:47 PM.]

Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

Donny,
As a former sound man I disagree with your post. I always went above and beyond to try to achieve the sound the band was striving for.

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D.S. Rigsby
Carter Starter and various six string toys

LARRY COLE · From: LANCASTER, OHIO, USA

A lot of sound men don't have a clue how to run sound. We once had a sound man that set all the tone controls on the mixer flat and the EQ,s al flat. This was at the Chrlie Horse Salloon in Lancaster, Ohio (the largest bar in the U S at the time. A musician/sound man will usually do a better job. We had a different sound man that was a musician and ran sound for the Police before they made it big. He could get a signal from everyone while the canned music was playing and have a decent sound on the first note and 90% tweeked half way through the first song.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12,SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60,GIBSON LES PAUL CUSTOM,YAMAHA L-10A ACOUSTIC,ROLAND JW-50 KEYBOARD,G&L AND BC RICH BASS'S

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

I like Randy's idea, get a rubber hose and put some lead shot in one end!! Then give the bugger a good thrashing till he gets it right !!
Good soundmen are worth their weight in gold, unfortunately they are about as scarce as rockinghorse S@#$T!

David Wright · From: Pilot Point ,Tx USA.

Sorry Larry & Randy,
I am working the door at a club in town, other wise I'd be there!!!!!!!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Dustin...nothing personal. Disagreement is allowed here. I'm not offended, and you shouldn't be, either.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're among the 10% of sound men who actually know what they're doing.

The other 90%, however, are frustrated rock 'n rollers, or hillbilly-disco dropouts.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 28 April 2004 at 06:48 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Ever thought of just using a preamp and open air headphones? You could run a line to the house instead of miking 3" speakers. Less gear, and you might hear yourself better, too.

The rest of the band could request "more steel" in their monitor mix.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Sounds like a Transtubefex would do the trick, Larry.

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

b0b,

With all due respect, I wouldn't "hold my breath" waiting for other musicians on stage to ask for more steel in their mix. In my experience, it don't happen. Alot of musicians have the same idea of the role of steel guitar in the band that the soundman has...they don't have a clue.

I'll agree with Pete's point about educating the soundman as to what is expected concerning the steel guitar mix and hope that he is agreeable to the changes.

Anyhow, I'll repeat what I posted before: If the soundman wants the steel to be heard at FOH, it will. If not, it won't.

Dustin, since I don't have knowledge of your sound engineering skills, I'll assume you're the exception to the rule.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Time for a new sound man if he doesn't understand what a steel adds to the mix.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Enter the stage with the 3" speaker, a 20watt head and a 12" scale steel. And one of Buddy's business cards that says, "Turn The #$%^@#g Steel Guitar UP!
DD

Jerry Tillman · From: Florida

I use to play steel in countryrock/southernrock/popcountry band that all played veryloud.I have used a lot of tricks,aiming my amp straight at my face from the floor in front of me like a moniter and playing verylow during soundcheck to fool the soundman a little.I have also took my own mini sound system to gig and ran my own sound.I would take a few amps and cabs including a marshall 4 12 cab.Allways ask for a vocal mike to be put in front of your steel just incase you have to sing or talk then aim your amp right into the mike,this drives the sound men crazy as your steel will end up getting everywhere.One of my most sucessful tricks is going over to the outfront soundman and telling him that your are going to run a low dry signel to him and could he give you a little reverb and delay.This work really well,it honest,it lets the sound man know you are interested in your sound and he will then pay more attention to your volume as he is now setting some effects on your channel.This last one will also give you a huge sound out front.If you want to hear the steel in a large venue being set correctly get the video Into the night,Paul Franklin with DireStraight sittin in,great sound,also great playing by Mr. Franklin.Thanks lakeshrk

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Well for one night at least it worked like I wanted it to. The sound man could not hear me from the stage, had to put me in the system to fill the void I would leave if not there. The drummer needs more of me but does not want me in his monitor. The sound is smaller due to the size of the speakers but my goal is not to have great sound on stage, it is to just be heard at all.

35 years of buying gear now it could be a Maverick and a $25 amp, and it might sound just as good out front.

Larry Behm

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well. Though I was kind of busy when I came last night, I was amazed that it was the best volume I've heard you at.

I told Mick what I thought, and I hope he took it to heart. Now there isn't anything he can do but turn you up to the level where you are getting full room coverage.

What happens with me is much as you describe.

Often I give up, turn the two 250 watt amps to where it sounds good to ME, and let the rest of them fend for themselves.

My Pod xt would be an option except that there is no way to power a monitor besides headphones. Either way you'd need direct boxes for each in stereo.

I even noticed good bass projection, and you ARE getting a GOOD nicely translucent high sound.

Don't know how you came up with it, but it WORKS.

My take on it anyhow.

I think I'll continue the same way through two amps, Pod xt and two 57s.

Lots of different venues coming up where I just have a different deal every week.

Sounded GREAT to me.

EJL

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I saw Emmet Roche playing in Andora.
The sound man was the father of the drummer and only seemed interested in making his son and the singer loud enough.

Emmet was playing through the monitors, and barely could hear himself over the drums mostly.

He kept asking for more sound in the monitors and the mains, the old SOB kept ignoring him, and then ignoring me when I went to help Emmet. To the point of waving me away nastily.

How the heck can a steeler play in tune without hearing himself?

I finally got the show's promoter... who writes the checks,
to help me and Emmet's wife lean on this soundman BIG TIME.

But absolutely the most obtuse mixer I have ever met.
But we finally got Emmet a decent stage and room sound, he was real fine after that.

If the soundman isn't a closed-minded moron, he WILL want your feedback on your sound,
if he is any good he will ask before you need to tell him.

If not get another... your sound man is your direct link with the crowd...

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I saw Trilok Gurtu, the worlds best percusionist, with his band last friday.

From the stage he introduced the band and the sound man Duncan.

I turned around and shook his hand for his great job, on a strange and none too well maintained sound system.

Trilok, a class act he KNOWS what this guy does for him on tour.

And an absolutley riviting performer.
The band was guitar, sitar doubling synth, a lady singer with incredable control, and a pecusion player who sounds like 3 guys at once.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 May 2004 at 06:14 AM.]

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I have used 15" spakers for aoubt 29 of my 31 years of playing. I went to a 12 about 4 months ago to get harder in the low end. This worked OK but I am amazed how much low end I am getting from those small speakers in this 100 watt powered monitor unit. The highs are not shrill and the low end is the hardness I like.

With the EQ in my fx unit I can change all of that so don't need the T M B controls on an amp. Thinking outside the box, we need to do more of that.

The more I listen to Paul and Mike Johnson the more I strive to get that hardness live. With a muddy mix in the PA of the overall band, (vocals, drums, bass, rhythm guitar) one needs to find a way to stand out apart from all of that. The 2 amp system would mean more to carry and still not achieve my overall goal. More to come.

Larry Behm

Bill Bailey · From: Kingman, AZ

Larry,
I think you should quit playing for a while,
NOT!
As long as I have known you, you have never been satisfied with your "that sound"for very long,IMHO it is the journey in search of "that sound" that keeps you playing not to mention all of us you have helped along your joourney. Happy trails my friend.
Bill Bailey

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Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Bill you are absolutely (sp) right. I have a great time trying different things. I get a real kick from it. I know I always sound like me but it is those little twists and turns that keep my interest up.

I playe 45 straight days once and was so bored with the sound of the steel I could not even hear the tone, just a drone behind me.

I am off to see Ken Fox in a week or two, maybe a Twin with my PP might keep me going for a week or two.

My Webb is hard to beat, versatile, versatile, versatile and best of all Red.

Love ya Bill Bailey
Larry Behm

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