Originl BF Fender Twin sucks :-(

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Just before I left the US, I auctioned a near mint original black face Twin off e-bay. The amp arrived and it was in great shape... some pot scratching and old tubes. I took it to a trustable technician to overhaul it completely (caps, tubes... Phillips JAN 6L6WGB... for warmth, new power cord and checking the pot's). They did a minimaly invasive job... they're purists, so they like to keep things as original as possible. I packed it up for our moving and never really played it ever. Couple of days ago, I celebrated my routine of quartely amp fire-ups, to keep the caps alife, it was raining, you know. I then decided to spend some time with the Twin... so we would get to know each other. I used a Telecaster first... I don't really play any good, but it sounded good, I liked it and decided to plug the Rickenbacher B-10... It sounded like shit... I played with the settings... the lower strings sounded like dead rubbers. No singing, no moan, no bang, no bark... lifeless. I still gave the amp some credit and was incliend to blame the B10... dead strings maybe?
So, I take out the very best the house has to offer.. B7... PRE-war... la creme de la creme... but still, noting...
I think, well, maybe I am just not used to big amps anymore... so I pull out the Sho-Bud Christmas Tree... not really my non-pedal amp... but then... all of a sudden here's sound, a last.
So what is it with the darn Twin? It sounds great with the Tele???

Do we really NEED to put in a D130 (the original two Fender Jensen 12" are in it) in it... that's it??

... J-D.

[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 18 April 2004 at 10:20 AM.]

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I have not yet found my happy place with Fender amps and lower strings. I like a lot of spank to my sound and the Fenders deliver that in spades but there's a fine line between deep bottom and mud and I'm on the wrong side of that line. None of my Fenders is in tiptop shape and I'm about to do a pretty good rehab on my Dual Showman Reverb. I'm hoping that this will help clean up the low-mids (or is it the high-lows)---this is one area that I like the sound of SS amps better. Unless and until I can succeed with these Fenders.
But yeah, J D----a D130 won't hurt nuthin if ya got one lying aroud.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've never liked those original Fender speakers for steel. They aren't bright enough. A lot of steel players put JBLs in their Fender amps.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Thanks Jon and b0b... don't you guys practice at this time??

I've got 4 D130's laying around... I just don't know which I should... :P

Is it really just the speakers? What does JB use. He is said to use a SF Twin...

... J-D.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Well..the sound tht you want may not be with the TWIN..but thats not necessarily an issue with the TWIN..

I've heard of a pretty popular session player who played a Green Sho-Bud with a Twin/D130 JBL for thousands of recordings and so far I think the jury thinks he sounds pretty good !

The stock Twin speakers are not the answer..get one of them thar JBL D130's you got sitting around, make yourself a 3/4 " plywood baffle board and get it installed.
Night and Day..

My former Twin had a JBL D130 and it was with me for 25 years until like a fool I sold it..

good luck
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 18 April 2004 at 11:40 AM.]

John Floyd · From: R.I.P.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

It was a Twin.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

For steel, the Twin seems to open up, fatten up, and tighten up on the lower strings when you recap with cleaner capacitors. The good (716 series) Orange Drops will do a nice job of this. I've got a Deluxe that has the normal channel with the old blue signal caps and the vibrato/reverb channel with Orange Drops. Makes for a nice comparison. The old cap's are warm and dark sounding, kinda sluggish on the low strings. The Orange Drops help bring out all the spank and sparkle and punch on the fat strings. JBL's for sure on steel. 12" or 15". Another tip is to cut the wire to the tremolo circuit if you don't need trem. But still, compared to a solid state amp, the Twin will have a gushier, more compressed sound. Many of us happen to like that aspect of it.

Brad Sarno

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

JD you described my Twin experience exactly, although mine is a 65 re-issue. The Jenson's sounded fine with my Tele, but very muddy for steel. A JBL D130-F makes a world of difference. Clean tight lows and sparkling sweet highs. It's definitely the way to go.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

If you want your twin to be a steel amp, you are going to get an early breakup with the Phillips 6L6 WGB's(great for six string). The best for clean headroom are the Phillips 6L6 GC's(great for steel). Also dump the Jensens and get a 15" baffle. Get an EVM 15L, EV SRO 15" or the JBL-D-130 or JBL K-130. I like the EV's better than JBL's myself, they handle the power and have deeper bottom, and not muddy. I love the EV highs, too. To me the JBL's tend to get a little mushy in the lows----at least in my amp('71 blackfaced silver face Fender Twin). Go with the orange drop caps forsure if you want a steel amp. Your twin is already a super tele amp, leaving it alone as it is. Good luck!!

[This message was edited by James Morehead on 18 April 2004 at 08:23 PM.]

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

The JBL and EV speakers are typically 8 ohms. You need 4 ohms to get the full power our of the amp. I am re-coning an EVM-15L to 4 ohms (a generice kit) to use in a Twin. The other option is a 1501-4SB by Peavey. They sound great in a Twin and give the proper 4 ohm load. I agree with orange drops as well. I have done several Dual Showmans for steelers and these caps were used. New filters and bypass caps are a good idea as well. The older caps tend to become a resistive path to DC and bog down an amp. I know some would disagree, but I have seen too many amps come up 10 to 20 volts on the plates after a good cap job! I have seen these old caps short out, go open and just plain leaking all over. The newer caps are far better than the old ones, too. Also if it is a two wire power cord, change it to a grounded cord.
Also it is easy to add reverb and tremolo to channel 1 and mod it for steel with a 56K ohm slope resistor in the tone stack. That way you have a choice, the original channel two and a beefier channel one with reverb for the more modern steel sounds.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Thanks to all again.
Yes, me too, I've heard there had been a guy, notorious for playing a green guitar with a missing neck... throu a Twin. That was among the reasons I bought it. I am not a Fender nut but I think they look cool too, annother good reason, now ain't it.

So, by popular vote (no hung chads!) the JBL it is. I'll make a new baffle board... I even think I got some 4Ohm ones, gotta check under the bed.

I am loosing you once you come to talk to me about "orange drops" and resistors in the tone stack and cutting off wires. Yes, the Vibrator is for chicks, I agree. I'd prefer a switch thou (it's a vintage amp!). I know what the filter caps are for... and I was told by the tech they were fine (althou still the originals).
The particular tubes were chosen because I don't really want a too clean sound. I generally use small amps out of the 30's and 40's. I need to have that singing sweetness. High power tubes tend to sound sterile (to me).
What I am looking to get here is my little amp's sound, just in 80Watts... more or less.
The power cord has been replaced with a 3-prong one... a mod I have done on all my vintage amps... vintage is cool... but you gotta survive it to enjoy it to the fullest!

Anyway, I would appreciate further detailed information about the orange drops and the resistor in the tone stack. But in an "Electronics For Dummies" format, please.

... J-D.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

You can pull two inner or two outer 6L6GC tubes and then use an 8 ohm speaker! You basically have a Vibroverb! That would lower the power to about 40 watts. Two 6L6GC tubes would want to see an 8 ohm speaker, so it wouold be perfect match.

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 19 April 2004 at 08:39 AM.]

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

JD,
Be sure to cut the hole in the new baffle off-center enough so that the speaker magnet clears the transformer.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Before I went to the baffle cutting thing, I would test the amp head with a separate cab and use a few different 15s just to see what the head sounds like to you.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Thanks for the warning about the room (transformer)!
I have been thinking about using an external first speaker too. And there is a question:
There is an "ext. speaker" jack. Is that a switch-off jack?
Second, if I hardwire the new speaker (baffle board), do I use the wires from both speakers?
And are we positive that this amp wants to see 4 Ohms?

Thanks! ... J-D.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Just unplug the speakers and plug in the external cab into the speaker output on the amp. Don't use the external output jack for the only speaker hooked up to the amp, use it for an extra cab hooked up with the amp speakers.

When you wire up the single 15 just use the speaker wire going to the first speaker.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

All Twins want to see 4 ohms. The Vibrasonic (a Twin with a 15" speaker) is an 8 ohm output tranformer amp. You must have a speaker plugged into the main jack at all times, as it has a short to ground contact on it (protects the transformer by blowing the power tubes and screen grid resistors and finally the fuse, voice of experience here!). The external jack is in parallel with the main, no shorting jack on it. None of this applies to the late 70's and early 80's Twins and Vibrasonics. They use an ultralinear output transformer and have a whole different setup on the speaker jacks.

David Doggett · Posted 19 Apr 2004 11:03 am

Ken, are you sure about pulling the power tubes changing the impedance the amp wants to see? My limited understanding is that the tap coming off the transformer is what determines the optimum speaker impedance. The transformer may have a 4 ohm tap, or an 8 ohm tap, or one of each, switchable. A two power tube 40 watt amp might be 4 ohm, 8 ohm or switchable beteen both, depending on the transformer taps; likewise, a 4 power tube 80 watt amp. You can use an 8 ohm speaker with a 4 0hm amp, regardless of the number of power tubes, but the output will be suboptimum.

As far as the 4 power tube Twin family, Twins seem to be all 4 ohm (because they were designed to use two 8 ohm 12s in parallel, giving 4 ohms. The Vibrosonic (with an "o") was an 8 ohm amp designed to take a single 8 ohm 15" speaker. The later Vibrasonic (with an "a") was designed to take a single 4 ohm 15" speaker. One solution with the 4 ohm amps and 8 ohm speakers is to run a single 8 ohm 15" speaker for small venues, where you don't need maximum output. For larger/louder situations, add another 8 ohm 15" speaker, but wire it parallel, for a total load of 4 ohms. This is essentially what a Twin was designed for, only you are running two 8 ohm 15s instead of two 8 ohm 12s. The performance of this for steel is outstanding. You may need to add this second speaker through your own parallel circuit into the internal speaker jack. The external speakers jacks are sometimes parallel and sometimes in series, depending on the era of the amp.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Yes, if you pull two tubes the plates are now looking for an 8 ohm load with this transformer, instead of a 4 ohm load. I recently did my 4th Vibroverb and used a Twin Reverb O.T. A lot of guys will pull two tubes and disconnect one 12" speaker to tame it down in a small club! The two outer tubes are in parallel and the two next to the inverter tube (12AT7) are also a parallel pair. One tube must be left in each set, as one set pushes while the other sets pulls!

There is only an 4 ohm tap on a Blackface or Silverface (non-ultralinear OT) Twin reverb. The SIlverface Vibrosonic ( not the Brown era Vibrasonic) had only an 8 ohm tap. The Brown era (2-6L6) came with two different OTs, an 8 ohm and a 16 ohm vwersion. The 90's Vibrasonic had only one transformer tap, was rated for a 4 ohm speaker and the extension jack was just in parallel. The Ultra-linears came with series and parallel jacks, depending on if it was a Twin Reverb or a Vibrosonic. The same era Dual Showman, Super Six Reverb or Quad Reverb did not have these tap switching jacks at all.

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 19 April 2004 at 07:07 PM.]

Murnel Babineaux · From: Mermentau, Louisiana, USA

I touched on this issue at the Cajun Classic Amps page. Some of the best sounding recording I've done in the studio was with a vibrasonic with a 15" JBL.

www.cajunsteelguitar.com/id13.html

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