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Topic: BMI Sues Small Pizza Shop for Playing a CD |
rpetersen
From:
Iowa
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Posted 18 May 2004 9:28 am |
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Nate - You helped write a song and helped record it and 3 years later you got a whole whopping $250 and you think they are great??
Am I missing something here??[This message was edited by rpetersen on 18 May 2004 at 10:29 AM.] |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 9:47 am
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There seems to be a huge comprehension gap around here when it comes to what BMI actually is and does. C'mon you paranoid knuckleheads - it's not some corporate behemoth of rich secret agents driving around in Bentleys taking pleasure in running mom and pop restaraunts out of business and skimming money off the paychecks of starving musicians.It's actually a rather small organization with a small suite of offices in Hollywood in a high rise office building(I've been there) as well as a few agents in other cities.It exists to collect monies owed to songwriters. It doesn't take money from songwriters - it collects,retrieves and distributes money TO songwriters. I personally know one guy who was the sole BMI field agent for Las Vegas. He made around $40K a year and supplemented it by playing bass in a country band in L.A. He was the guy who would go to an establishment in his Nissan Sentra and sell them a license. There was nothing heavy handed in his pitch and some refused - some signed up. Most already had a BMI license. I was ripped off not by BMI but by another songwriter,his publishing company and my own stupidity.Had I been affiliated,BMI might have helped me. BTW,I AM self-published and I do sell my own product as does my band "The Riders of the Purple Sage" but that has nothing to do with music licensing and royalty collection.
And if Jim's own songs were published(and I'm sure they are)and he was a BMI affiliate as am I,he wouldn't owe me money - BMI would owe us both money - get it?
-MJ-
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 18 May 2004 10:02 am
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Just for the record (no pun intended): I've only written two songs in the past two decades, and they both sucked.  |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 18 May 2004 10:14 am
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Theres no GAP here..( not the store )
the topic is about one thing and one thing only..
Some small guy with a Pizza shop was told that no one could perform music in his little Pizza shop even if they were playing there own music self written music because of some BMI so called rule which I doubt even exists.
BMI is a great service..but putting a strong arm on someone who is playing there own music in public is a Civil Suit they are not gonna' win.
This has nothing to do with written/copyrighted/published/BMI contracted music which is available for sale or use by other artists. THAT music has every right and should be covered under licensing.
This is not a misunderstanding it is a response to what was told to a small local shop owner in response to LIVE music..
So let me ask this to the BMI guys..
Are we headed towards no LIVE music anywhere if a BMI Licensing fee isn't paid ? Is this where we are heading with this ?
Recently one of the major Internet Radio show sites (Live365)started charging an extra mothly fee for licensing...I could not figure out where the money was going so I shut my show off. No one could even explain where the fee was going..they called it a blanket fee..still do..so who gets the money ? The writers or the adminstrators ? They never asked for a song list..they said it was generic..a generic fee..now thats something we can all appreciate.
Lets just send in the money and all be happy.. 
t |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 May 2004 10:26 am
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The quality doesn't matter Jim, BMI's web site brags about all the Hip Hop Artists on their roster.
My real beef is that BMI told the above Pizza Joint that you can not play your songs there. BMI just cost you a gig.
I agree that it's no more of a rip off than the "Out of work Horn Player" from the AFM that cards band members. Still a rip-off.
Our local AFM can no longer recruit an enforcer due to the incident that happened to their last enforcer a few years back.
Lucky for her she wasn't a guy, or more than her car would have been damaged, at least that's the story I hear. She's still a union member, but no longer a band leader, her gigs are limited to Karakoe in dives.
[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 18 May 2004 at 11:29 AM.] |
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Walter Stettner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 18 May 2004 11:58 am
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We have the same law here in Austria and it is enforced the same stupid way, like mixing up apples and oranges.
Copyright yes (I have composed songs that are copyrighted myself) but the article is about another "shoot rockets at mice" case. The guy who runs a bar and attracts people with (copyrighted) live music without paying for licenses steals from others (the composers), no doubt.
The guy who runs a pizzeria, sun studio etc. who plays either radio or CD in the background does not steal, IMO, because he plays licensed music that was already paid for (for buying the CD or by the radio station). Threatening and suing places like that is a total rip-off.
The worst thing (if it's true) is to forbid playing self composed live music. I never heard about anything like that. It's nobody's business but the musician's (composer's) what happens to his music. Even more, BMI steals money from the guy because he is not allowed to play his music, they do the same thing they accuse others for.
Kind Regards, Walter
www,austriansteelguitar.at.tf
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William Peters
From:
Effort, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 12:17 pm
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Michael,
| Quote: |
| There seems to be a huge comprehension gap around here when it comes to what BMI actually is and does |
I don't think there is any huge comprehension gap here. Whether BMI or ASCAP is one individual driving a 1970 Volkswagen, or 1000 suits driving Beemers is irrevelant. The issue is whether shop owners with radios should have to pay protection money to BMI and ASCAP to keep from getting sued. You don't seem to grasp that issue. You as a music writer or musician were already paid for your work.
Personally, I think all background music playing should be stopped, and the sound of ocean waves breaking in the surf should be substituted. That is a lot more soothing to me than what is usually being played. The whole issue would go away, but artists won't sell as many recordings. Crime would probably decrease though, as people would be more sane when they weren't constantly exposed to rap music.
Consider this. It is never the shopowners who actually foot the bill for things like this. It is the customers who pay through higher prices for whatever goods or services they are purchasing. So, I as a customer am forced to buy something I didn't want in the first place. Its not the same as putting $1.00 in a jukebox, which would have been my choice to make.
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| it's not some corporate behemoth of rich secret agents driving around in Bentleys taking pleasure in running mom and pop restaurants out of business |
Sounds to me like it is. I don't know the figure for BMI, but ASCAP took in $688 Million buckos last year, and kept $90 Million of it. The average Joe was paid $341.71 according to my calculations. These numbers came from their annual report. Man, you can buy a lot of legislation with that kind of money.
Here's another example of BMI's deplorable behaviour, threatening to sue a schoolteacher who didn't even use any BMI licensed music. I didn't have to look very hard to find it. Nothing but pure harassment it is. Ethically its not any different than breaking kneecaps for fun and profit.
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1083/is_n6_v72/ai_20650585
BTW, No one is saying that you shouldn't get royalties for your published works. You should.
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| And if Jim's own songs were published(and I'm sure they are)and he was a BMI affiliate as am I,he wouldn't owe me money - BMI would owe us both money - get it? |
Now you will have to explain to me why BMI should pay you for Jim playing his own music.
I really don't understand that. You did absolutely nothing to deserve it. Why should Jim's listeners be forced to pay you?
All you guys that have sound clips on your websites.... YOU'RE NEXT!
Bill
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 18 May 2004 1:03 pm
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What's needed here is some sort of balance. Yes, songwriters should be compensated when their matial is used. But within reason.
I remember when, as a club player, we couldn't play "Looking For Love" unless we paid a certain amount of money to ASCAP(?)
Now when a musician is making $40 a night, of we had to pay royalties for a every song we played, we'd end up having to pay out more than we made.
I don't know where the line shgould be drawn, but clearly it must be drawn somewhere, and clearly it is to nobody's advantage to prevent people from playing the music. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 1:56 pm
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| There are exemptions for small businesses. See item #8 on ASCAP's FAQ page. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 2:05 pm
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Again - blanket fees are fees charged to a business or establishment that uses enough music that some or probably - since BMI is the largest agency of its type - MOST of it is BMI administered music. This fee is then sent to all BMI songwriters as a quarterly dividend in hopes that everything averages out so some of the songwriters whose songs are used are actually compensated a few bucks.It's a compromise solution since like I said earlier in the thread it would take an army of loggers and accountants to actually tally up an accurate list of each song played how many times,where and when,etc. And again - a club has live music. Some of the musicians play nothing but unpublished original tunes. But like the guy says - sooner or later BMI music will be played there - Why? because most music IS BMI affiliated music. When the club owner pays a blanket fee,he is contributing to the fund for BMI songwriters' dividends.If after the fee is payed,the unpublished guy plays there again or an ASCAP affilliated guy,there's no sweat,cost or fees for them whatsoever - cause it's not about them(they also don't get a BMI dividend - whatever that's worth). Anyhow the mom and pop pizzaria scenerios are few and far between and I don't think anyone ever actually gets sued or closed down because it's not reasonable,feasable or cost effective. It does however make an appealing Them vs Us human interest story which is what we've really got here - in my humble but sometimes accurate opinion.  -MJ- |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 May 2004 2:58 pm
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Has BMI and ASCAP looked into the Steel Shows and Jams that we enjoy?
Many of the smaller shows are just on the edge of going broke. Nothing like a multi-million dollar organization giving them a push. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 18 May 2004 3:09 pm
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| Most, if not all, steel shows are done in venues that already have the licenses... |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 18 May 2004 5:14 pm
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| Quote: |
| This fee is then sent to all BMI songwriters as a quarterly dividend in hopes that everything averages out so some of the songwriters whose songs are used are actually compensated a few bucks |
Hey! Does that mean if I join BMI, I too can get paid for other people's songs, even if my own lousy songs never get played? How cool is that! Where do I sign up? |
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William Peters
From:
Effort, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 5:21 pm
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Jim,
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| Hey! Does that mean if I join BMI, I too can get paid for other people's songs |
Not according to my friend who is a longtime BMI musician. He tells me that the money is apportioned according to radio plays. So when your venue gets strong-armed, and you are playing Hank Williams and Johnny Cash songs in your band, the money goes to Shania Twain, Brad Paisely, and the Dixie Chicks. You don't get any of it. Thats fair isn't it?
If this isn't the way it works, someone who knows for sure please correct me.
Bill |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 May 2004 5:35 pm
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Those acts may get some, but the big airplay belongs to acts like Eminem, Britney, and other modern stars that would make you long for the traditional sounds of Shania and Brad.
See whose listed at www.bmi.com
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 5:41 pm
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| Nope. Radio is different. Different stream of income,different way of logging/accounting(more accurate)Different way of getting paid(you don't get paid for someone else's song). |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 18 May 2004 6:55 pm
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| So, am I right, then, Michael? All I've gotta do is join up and I'll get a residual income on other people's music? That sounds like easy money to me! |
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Ken Lang
From:
Simi Valley, Ca
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Posted 18 May 2004 7:04 pm
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Actually, you can get paid for someone else's song if you are the publisher. We had a song on an LA radio station for awhile. As a BMI publisher, I received a check and the songwriter received one also. That money was recompense for playing the song on the air. A radio station attracts listeners by the music they play and charge rates for advertisers based on how many listeners.
It seems only fair that a radio station playing my song and making money from it should pass along a little to the people responsible for the song.
Can I keep track of airplay, how many stations play it how often in how many cities? Not.
That's where the preformance rights orginizations like BMI come in. They do the tracking, collect the money and send out the check.
As for the mom and pop stuff, my answer is clear. BMI or whoever have overstepped their bounds. BMI, ASCAP, SESAC and others need to tread lightly on hometown Americans. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 18 May 2004 7:48 pm
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| Yep - Easy money. Just not very much of it..... I agree about the over zealous small town field rep.He lacks perspective. No one I know in L.A. or Vegas would do that. It gives BMI a black eye and there's no money in it anyway - it's small potatoes in a sea of small potatoes. Actually,the field rep I know told me years ago that ASCAP had quit pursuing licensing mom and pop venues like we're talking about and was concentrating on bigger fish cause it was too much trouble for nickles and dimes. BMI followed suit shortly after that and that was in '94. Either they've re-instated the policy or this particular guy is a loose cannon scrounging up anything he can in a small town. -MJ- |
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Joe Casey
From:
Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)
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Posted 19 May 2004 8:15 am
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I think I would rather have a percentage of the Pizza's sold?
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 19 May 2004 11:27 am
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I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I do not see any difference in an owner paying for a CD, then having to pay a royalty every time its played; and that owner buying ANY other item and having to pay a royalty every time it is used. This has never made any sense to me.
The inventor of the "hula hoop" never got a dime from all those who used it, in any manner, AFTER it was purchased. It would seem to me that the best way is for the song writer and performers to charge a fee, make it as high as you feel is right to cover your costs and markup (same as any business has to do). Tie it to EVERY sale of that CD or recording.
THEN let the marketers of that CD recover that cost (plus profit) during the producing and distribution of that product. And then forget about BMI or ASCAP, or any other watchdog policing body that tried to play gestapo to all who use that product for whatever reason.
It seems to me that if the practice as is now done, was to apply to every item an owner uses in his business, it would be a staggering, if not impossible nightmare of bookeeping and accounting.
There has gotta be a better way (at the source) rather than to punish the ones on down the line. To me a purchase of ANY thing means ownership. I believe that all royalties need come from the sale of any item and not when or how it is used.
I can just see Hartley Peavey demanding a royalty ANY time one plays for gain through a Peavey amplifier. (Dollar gain that is  ) When ya bought that amplifier, it became YOURS. To me the same should go for any item purchased including a purchaser buying a recording.
Flame suit on. Please be kind
carl |
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Bill Crook
From:
Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance
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Posted 19 May 2004 12:06 pm
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C.Dixon..........
I agree with you.
Whenever I buy it,and it gets into my house, IT'S MINE. I'll do whatever I wish with it. This is not just music,it's anything I have legally purchased.
Question :
How would you (a consumer) like to have to pay a tax on the air you breathe ????
Thinking as a BMI mousefart,The goverment own most of the forrest and trees that convert sunshine and carbon dioxide into the nice breathable air that you and I enjoy. Now as we use air produced by the trees, it's only right that we pay a royalty on each breath we take.
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http://home.comcast.net/~crookwf/
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/crookwf/my_photos |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 19 May 2004 2:36 pm
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Carl, thus we have the difference between copyrights and patents. You can't (technically) copyright a hula-hoop. You can copyright books, images, & music & art etc.
I wonder what would happen if one decided to read a book over the air...? That would get real sticky fast I think. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 May 2004 5:27 pm
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Carl, as usual, you make a lot of sense. I gotta agree with you.
also...
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| ASCAP took in $688 Million buckos last year, and kept $90 Million of it. The average Joe was paid $341.71 |
I LOVE those kinds of statistics!!! (Thanks William) That sounds like a pretty good profit margin for "Mr.Big" to me.
And as usual, the little guy is getting screwed by "Mr. Big".
And as usual, he's the same little guy that defends "Mr. Big" so vehemently.
And as usual, he can't be convinced he's barking up the wrong tree, and actually hurting himself by arguing with his potential customers.
And...
If you (ahem) steel-playing "songwriters" continue to bitch about the nickels and dimes you're losing, I imagine the steel shows will eventually disappear.
But then...you wouldn't care, would you?
After all, it's just those nickles and dimes that concern you.
I sincerely hope that someday ALL you aspiring songwriters make it big. I hope you write a song that sells a million copies. And, I hope you realize that this song (which earned some "Mr. Big" about 2 1/2 million dollars) will probably net you a whopping $22,000, after taxes and expenses. I'm sure you will be most thankful and appreciative towards "Mr. Big", who is laughing all the way to the bank and thinking "I sure am glad there's one born every minute!"
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