Any BlueGrass 6 string pickers here?

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

Just got a job as guitar player in a BlueGrass band. My first blue Grass band. I've got a lotta work to do to get up to speed. I was a pretty deccent guitarist back when but have grown very rusty since taking up steel. It's a good opportunity to get back those chops and not let all that hard work of earlier days go to waste. My Takemine wasnt putting out enough next to the banjo and other guys so I ran out and bought a new Martin D16GT($1000). I hope I wasnt too hasty. On my way home with my new Martin I got struck with Grass is greener on the other side fever and started kicking myself for not taking more time to play a dozen or so other Martins, Taylors and Gibsons around town to find that Mr.Right, though I did AB test it with a few others(Martins) and this one seemed to have the edge.
I am not experienced with these type of instruments (Martins,BlueGrass,etc.). This axe seems to be a fine instrument...but boy..it sure is tuff on my hands so far. More so than the Takemine. Im hoping its all to do with my hands and not a hastily purchased brand new $1000 guitar. Like I hope there's something called Martin BlueGrass callouses which I need to acquire and everything will be just fine.
Finally my question for the BlueGrass pickers. What gauge do most use, particularly for lead and solo playing. (please let it be light) Thanks.

Michael Miller · From: Virginia

Steven, I have been flatpicking for years. I own a Martin HD28 and a Taylor 510. I find you really need a fairly heavy set of strings to "drive" the top. Especially if you are competing with banjos and fiddles which tend to be pretty loud. I use a bluegrass gauge which basically is medium tops and light bottoms. This lets you play up the neck more easily on the treble strings but still gives you that solid bass for G and D runs, etc. It does take more effort/strength to play a Martin than say a Taylor but the sound pays off. Be sure to get a professional set-up after you settle on a string gauge you like. BTW, there is a new bluegrass forum just starting up: http://www.bluegrassworks.com/bluegrass-music-forum/index.php Good Luck!

D Schubert · From: Columbia, MO, USA

True medium gage 0.13" to 0.56" is pretty much the standard, for lead or rhythm. Anything lighter will sound thin or slappy when played with adequate vigor. Bluegrass is an extremely demanding application for instruments, particularly guitars. And physically demanding on those who choose to play single-note guitar leads. A top-notch bluegrass guitar will have volume, transient response (imperceptible lag between picking and hearing, not even a few microseconds), and cuttin' power to be heard over the other instruments...which also means that the guitar will do more of the work, and you will do less. Most pros choose a Martin D-18 or D-28 with some age & playing time on it...or a d@mn good facsimile thereof. Hand strengthening exercises help, and so does a good setup. Hint: you may want your nut and bridge saddle to be just a tad taller on the bass side than on the treble side. FWIW, I play a '60 D-18 for occasional bluegrass lead and my partner plays a '64 D-28 for rhythm, both strung with 0.13" to 0.56" gage and 1.52 mm Clayton flatpicks.

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

Oh boy...I didnt realize the Bluegrass guitar setup was so phsically demanding. Sounds like a special forces bootcamp no pain no gain thing here. This guitar has not had a setup yet so I hope that will help.
I didnt really want to get with a brand new guitar. I much prefer the aged and played.But I was kind of in a hurry to get the sound up to snuff for this group as Im their only guitarist.
Glad to hear there's a Bluegrass forum. I'll check in.
BTW...how does a resale value hold up on a new Martin if kept in pristine condition?

Bryan Knox · From: Gardendale, Alabama...Ya'll come

Hi!

Fellow forum member Steve Stallings is the founder of the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum and there is a wealth of information about our beloved Martin guitars there.

Here's the link: http://pub125.ezboard.com/btheunofficialmartinguitarforum

Steve helped introduce me to the world of steel and the rest is history. The Martin forum is invaluable when it comes to needing info on Martins and most of the members are great to deal with. Great place to visit.

I use a Martin D-28L (lefty) and I wouldn't think of using anything BUT a Martin for Bluerass.

Enjoy the journey you've just embarked upon!

BigB

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Elixers!

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I've played bluegrass and fiddle tunes for many years on an an old solid wood Alvarez dreadnaught. It compares to any Martin I've been head to head with. I think that too much has been made of Martins. I've compared Martins and Taylors and I prefer the sound of the Taylors but I can't afford the one I want so I'll just stick with the Alvarez. Also Steven, have you ever tried playing with your thumbpick and fingerpicks? It works pretty well. Did you ever hear Eddie Adcock? He's great and that's the way he plays. You can't do the flangy dangy rhythm that most bluegrass guitarists do but your can play some good chop rhythm which sounds better to me anyway. When the mandolin player stops playing rhythm in a bluegrass band it's almost like the rhythm stops. I've noticed that some of the bands nowadays like Ricky Skaggs, Osbourne Bros, etc. are using someone on an F-Hole archtop to play nothing but bar chord rhythm to keep it going. Have a good 'un........JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Jesse Harris · From: Ventura, California, USA

I play festivals all year long
www.oldnumber7.net

you need a big guitar with meds 13's

right now other that pre war martins
the guitars to play are

collings
santa cruz
bourgeois
goodall (the trad Ds)

these are the big gun guitars right now
and any one of these will crush any taylor
alvarez and especially takamine on a
bluegrass stage.

and when it comes to strings Pete said it best

Elixers!

insanely long life ( for me one whole gig
as opposed to one set with the old phosphors)

go for the nanoweb instead of the polyweb

there are no easy answers when it comes to bluegrass and even more so when your talking about flatpick guitar. You gotta woodshed and you gotta do it on stage a lot in situations where you are stressed with volume.

as for picks, real tortoise is the best,
about a 1.2 mm if you can get it, a close
2nd is the new pyramid picks, you want to have
a very stiff pick but not too thick, most plastic picks get too thick to have the required stiffness, the pyramids are the best non tortoise I have found, in a pinch i can use the pink dunlops 1.14s.

as far as finger pickin' that is not really what bluegrass guitar is really about, that being said in bluegrass gospel the finger picked guitar is a big part of the sound, one of my favorite bluegras guitar players is Earl Scruggs, does awesome three finger picking on gospel stuff, but most bluegrass gospel does NOT have a banjo, so its different. You will never get the real bluegrass thing with finger picks.

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

What they said! I am a columnist for Flatpicking Guitar Magazine...the usual tools of choice are a dreadnought with medium guage strings, but with a good setup job they can play fairly easy (unless you are coming from Tele Heaven, in which case, welcome to Down Under!).

I use a Dunlop 1.5 mm "tortex" (actually Delrin) pick, fake torise shell, it's darker tone-wise than real shell, but I prefer it and it's about 45000% cheaper, the edges are beveled so it's not like using a rock. Many of us (including Russ barenberg and Tony Rice) use the "dumb end" rather than the point, which gives you a fatter tone.

Now, Scott Nygaard has used 000 sized guitars, a few other players as well, so if that works for you, go for it. Just be sure to ask the others in your band to play dynamically (translation: shut up some) when you solo, so you don't have to go into traction to be heard.

You'll be playing rhythm 95% of the time even if you solo on every tune, so pay lots of attention to the greats like Jimmy Martin and Del McCoury...a metronome is a great thing too, and playing along with the recordings is also a great way to practice.

Jesse Harris · From: Ventura, California, USA

ya the delrin picks are my second choice
after the pyramids, have you tried the pyramids john? they are great.

my current flatpicking hero bryan sutton
uses the 1.14 dunlop delrins

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

Jesse, if they are the ones with the pointed corners, I wouldn't go for it as I really like the rounded shoulder (or "dumb end").

Bryan is a burnin' player!

[This message was edited by John McGann on 17 October 2003 at 03:11 PM.]

Jesse Harris · From: Ventura, California, USA

no they are shaped like an old fender pick
http://www.custom-sounds.com/kuvat/Pyramidpick.gif

a taste of sutton live!!!!!!
http://www.harrismusic.net/tracks/wwater.mp3

also has douglass for the reso fans

[This message was edited by Jesse Harris on 17 October 2003 at 03:32 PM.]

Matt Brydges · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Don't listen to these guys, just go out and get an Ovation with super-light nickels and a box of those white dunlop .46 picks and you're all set

Like everyone says - Medium Gauge. I personally wouldn't want anything smaller than a 13 on top, I like lots of body on that string. I really like Elixirs on the Electric - they last forever! On the flat top however, I have found they wear out quickly in my experience (when playing bluegrass anyway). Mind you, I've only tried the "polyweb" ones. Surely everyone will have their own preference, but I've tried most and found that Thomastic Infeld 13-57s seem to have the best combination of sound and life for My playing, and can get through a good long night of bluegrass (not much more though).
Tortoise shell picks rule! I definitely prefer them thick and with round corners, not pointy. As an alternative I do use Satin finished 2mm Black Dunlop Tortex picks sometimes, and have no problem with them either - they give a pretty rich smooth tone if you pick on a good angle or use the short end.

There's my 4 cents anyway!

Matt
HD 28

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

First of all, the action on a Martin does not need to be higher than a Taylor, Takamine, or anything else. If yours is, you need a setup. My old '55 D-28 is a banjo killer, and I can fret it anywhere I want. My other acoustics for 'grass are a Dana Bourgeois Skaggs model(rosewood), and a Larivee C-10, with a cedar top. All are easy to play, though not as easy as a Tele with .009's on it. And I don't WANT 'em to be!
Strings? .013-.056 phosphor bronze, usually D'addarios, since you can get free stuff for the packages!
I use the Clayton gold, modified triangle flatpicks, 1.07mm. Sound about as good as tortoise, and they don't cost thirty or forty dollars apiece! I sold all my tortoise picks to a banjo player, and haven't looked back.
As for finger/thumbpicks, anybody ever heard Wayne Henderson? He uses 'em, and sounds like three flatpickers at once. And as for rhythm, Lester Flatt, Charlie Monroe and a slue of others used a thumbpick for downstrokes, and one fingerpick coming back up.
It ain't hard, just takes practice---and, BTW, Doc Watson now uses light gauge(.012-.054) John Pearse strings---but he's EIGHTY!
And a national treasure!!!!

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Regarding Earl Scruggs fingerstyle guitar...

Back in the Dark 60's I was a bluegrasser... mando, dobro, guitar... and cut my musical teeth at a very influential club in Hollywood called "The Ash Grove." Forumites Mike Perlowin and David Magram were also part of this scene. All the important folk country and blues artists played there, all of them.

Anyway, I was certainly aware of Earl Scruggs fingerstyle guitar on the F&S gospel tunes. F&S played the Ash Grove several times. What blew my mind one night was listening to Brownie McGhee (without Sonny Terry) playing gospel tunes and he had the same guitar style as Earl Scruggs played. Both Brownie and Earl are from North Carolina. Natch. A little folklore lesson for a teenage picker.

I still have a neat 66 D28 and my wife has a D18.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

D Schubert · From: Columbia, MO, USA

A couple of "classic" blugrass lead guitarists you should listen to: George Shuffler and Larry Sparks. Both of these guys worked with the Stanley Brothers, who featured lead guitar on many of their old recordings. This distinguished their Clinch Mountain Boys from Bill Monroe (heavy on the mandolin, naturally) or Flatt & Scruggs (Uncle Josh on the Dobro) of the same era. George Shuffler is a master of the cross-picking sound. Larry plays a more bluesy style. When Carter Stanley died in the 60's , Larry took over as lead singer for the band with Ralph Stanley singing tenor. Two of my old-time favorites.

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

Tony Rice, David Greer

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I think a great day is to play guitar, mandolin, bass and dobro at a bluegrass festival anywhere.
I did a steady bluegrass gig in NYC for 3+ years till I came over here.

I have an old '57 Gibson J-50, but if I had my druthers it would be a D-28 from '52-'56. They are broken in enough to have sweet tone AND more power, and they have the volume for soloing. I have played at least one D-28 from every year between 1949 and 1973.
Middle '30's are better still, but who can afford them?

If it looks worn on top, that usually means it's more played and sounds better. And can be had for less than a NEW automobile...

If you decide to move up eventually, get as old a D-28 as you can afford. They don't go down in value.
And yes it IS great for the chops.

Get anything with Tony Rice playing on it if you want a reference to how it's done.
And Ricky Scaggs Ancient Tones is very hot too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 October 2003 at 02:10 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Schubert, if Carl Perkins had decided to play bluegrass, he'd be Larry Sparks! Nobody out there has more soul, in either his voice OR his playing! One of the all-time greats.

Jesse Harris · From: Ventura, California, USA

Larry Sparks is awesome
John Deere tractor is a great album

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Above!
Choose your string type and stay with them. They affect the setup.
Bone bridge and nut will help volume and tone.
Clayton pyramid picks. 0.94mm (amber/clear see through) sound very bright and loud. Sound like glass when you drop them on a table top.

Put the guitar in front of a loudspeaker and play CD's day and night to break it in. Be sure it does not get too humid. That kills the soundboard.

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

I appreciate all the great advice and info. (no need to stop here though) I'm presently having the D16 set up with Elixer Med13's. Over the weekend I played with the group with a set of John Pearse light gauge(nothing to do with the above advice I new he was jokin) I didnt like it much. It was a tad slappy and lacked body. I just put some Martin med's on the Takemine( might as well start breakin in the hands while the Martin is getting set up). What a differance. Much more strong and rich sounding. Though Im wondering if I should have gone with the Bluegrass med/lite combo. I think I'll miss being able to occasionally bend that 3rd string a bit.
I like the bone idea if it's not too late and if they have the material.
I wish I wasnt so anxious to let go of my $. Sounds like those Blueridge guitars are holding their own next to the D18's and 28's and what a deal. Oh well.

[This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 20 October 2003 at 07:42 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Actually, Steven, I WASN'T joking about Doc. He's using light gauge strings---but he plugs in, too.
And I've been thinking about this thing. We're all trying to tell you how to flatpick like David Grier, Tony Rice, Bryan Sutton, whoever---and we're leaving off the most important part of guitar in bluegrass, that of holding down rhythm for everybody else!
So FORGET this stuff about string gauges, picks, setups...and listen to Jimmy Martin, Del McCoury, Charlie Moore, Lester Flatt, Wayne Lewis--and pay attention to the "bluegrass drumset." Rhythm guitar has been overlooked in the last few years, and that's a shame, since it's probably the hardest job in the band, especially if done correctly. Get that right hand working, chords changing, and a few bass runs, you'll be up and running. Good luck!

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

Right Stephen. Yes...I understand as guitarist the work horse job as dependable rythm section component. Fine with me. The leader is putting me out there with a solo about 75% of material however. Which has been a little humiliating at times givin my atrophied condition. The physical demands of Bluegrass dont make it any easier. With some serious woodshedding and some daily human growth hormone,I might be able to hang in there with halfway decent 16th note solos about 115 bpm WAY down the road. Right now the ideas arent flowin and the hands arent movin.And for God sakes...who needs to pick as fast as the guys mentioned above? I still need to justify why I own a '72 push pull

[This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 20 October 2003 at 09:56 PM.]

DroopyPawn · From: Fox, OK, USA

I could have saved you some bux on that guitar with a Blueridge, instead of a Martin. I'm ready to sell my HD28 because of the Blueridge guitars I sell.

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