Jerry Byrd talks tuners one more time.

Jack Byrd · From: Kalamazoo, Michigan

The use of tuners has been a topic of many responses of the last few months. I have shared this with Jerry and here is what he has to say about tuners. I am sure many of you have heard this before and am just as sure he isn’t going there about tuners again.

A lot of people play piano and couldn’t tune a stringed instrument because they haven’t and ear for pitch. On a piano all you have to do is put this finger on that key and you get a sound. That’s not the way it is with steel guitar at all. So the tuners – I can tune up while they are pushing those damn buttons for the next pitch and besides you’ve got to tune each instrument to itself. Not to another instrument because it might be different. I get the top string on concert pitch E and put the second string in harmony with it – whatever it is B, C, or C# whichever one and I can hum it – Dah,dah-dah. Get the first two strings then add the third string and the forth and then go into octaves if you’ve got an E on the top and E on the forth or fifth string- tune them together simultaneously by octave. If you get a flutter a wah-wah-wah-wah then you have dissonance. That means you are out of tune. Keep tuning until that disappears then you’ve got both strings together and the flutter disappears. But I can tune eight strings while they are pushing the buttons on those damn things. Tune it by ear and intonation.

A lot of guitar payers use them-they are good if your playing a show somewhere and you’ve got a lot of noise and you can’t hear your instrument outside and you can look on the meter and see if it is on pitch- that’s a visual pitch but when you put your fingers on the guitar neck and all necks are not the same on guitars and when you push down that changes the pitch of the string then you’ve got to retune and tune the strings to each other anyway. So you may as well do that in the beginning and forget the tuners. I have tuned for 70 years and never had a tuner. I’ve gone over this 5,000 times I guess by now.

[This message was edited by Jack Byrd on 09 September 2003 at 07:22 AM.]

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

I have an E tuning fork, with which I tune my first string; and then I tune all the other strings by intonation.

I have an electronic tuner; but I don't use it. I don't trust it;___I think it's a liar.

Rick

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I am one of Jerry Byrd's most ardent admirers; IF not the most. I love him with my soul for what he has done. I respect him more than I have words to say. He is truly the master of touch and tone. I have only good things to say about him.

But I must take exception to his post in this case. I hear every word he is saying. But there is an equal argument (IMO) for the use of tuners; for those of us that are NOT blessed with the ears he has.

I have watched Jerry tune his guitars off and on for over 40 yrs. It is a pleasure and a thrill to see him do it. NO human is as good IMO, except for Buddy Emmons, in finding that perfect pitch as Jerry can soo effortlessly do time and time again.

But sadly, we all do not have that incredible God given talent. In my opinion, the tuner, especially ones like the Peterson or the Precision Strobe tuners are outsdandingly good for many of us. And solve a long standing problem for us.

Plus, they make tuning pedal steels lightning fast; once a given guitar's temperaments are programmed in. As one person on this forum said, "I can tune every string on my D-10, plus all the pedal and knee lever changes on both necks in less than 5 minutes using the PST, and they come out precisely in tune every time."

I am in total agreement with this.

So my point is, for my precious friend Jerry and Buddy and others, who have NO difficulty in tuning by ear, go for it.

But for those of us less fortunate who find a tuner a blessing, I say, go for it. I will add I think it is a total waste of money to spend a lot of money for a tuner and then only use it to tune one string. That does seem ludicrous to me.

But "whatever floats......"

May Jesus bless Jerry and all of you always,

carl

Mike D · From: Phx, Az

Yeah, it's nice to have perfect pitch, but you can't really have a person with perfect pitch tell someone without it to, 'Do it like I do.'
My daughter either has perfect pitch or really close to it. She can identify notes just by ear. Boy is she tough to play and sing with.

Me, I have a hard time telling what key people are playing in. Also on stage with a bunch of noise...thank God for electronic tuners.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

JS Bach could tune an entire harpsichord with a couple of hundred strings in less than 10 minutes. So I am not surprised that a player as formidable as Mr. Byrd would not have much of a problem tuning 6 or 8 strings pretty quickly!

Now for the rest of us mere mortals.

Tuners are NOT a sign that the person using them cannot tune their own guitar. In a reasonably sonically sane environment I have no problem tuning up my underarm guitars. In the environments that I work in presently, the tuner is a must!! I was working a church service Sunday. I tuned my electric guitar while the Minister was delivering his post serman prayer. Nobody knew it. I dare say that Mr. Byrd could perform his feat so deftly if he was sitting on a stage with a symphony orchestra noodling behind him. I played with the Atlanta Symphony in Chicago a few months ago. The second piece I played on had a E string to D tuning. After the piece while the orchestra was playing the next movement, I reached for my tuner and tuned my acoustic guitar while the rest of the 100 piece orchestra is roaring around me. I walk into recording sessions and the drummer is back there "building a house" and you can't hear zip or during the recording I have a section I am not playing in, I can check my tuning and tweak accordingly.

The first tuner I bought---it was like going up to a counter and asking the lady to come and open up the condom cabinet so I could look through them. Would the guy think I was too eardead to tune my own guitar?? Years later--I own at least 8. I keep them on my workbench, my recording console, my gig bags-
I don't leave home without them.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

All due respect to the maestro Jerry Byrd.I too can tune up just fine and right quick without a tuner - if everybody will just shut up and permit me to do so.But here on Earth that never happens so for years I've depended on having a guitar that stays in tune real well and tuning up at home,before the gig and checking it between sets the best I can over the jukebox.All that changed last week when I got a new Peterson programable tuner.It took all day to dial in my U-12 offsets but now I can tune silently and extremely accurately during a gig,during a song or while the band leader is telling a story or making an announcement. My struggle is over - I won't go back. -MJ-

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

It is one thing for a seasoned player to use a tuner in "hostile" environments or to tune up those 10,12 or 14 string monsters with pedals and levers ... quickly and efficiently ...

It is another thing for a beginner, novice or intermediate player to rely on a tuner to "get tuned up" ... and it seems to me that this is what JB is addressing in the above post.

In my opinion... learning to tune using "Just Intonation" is an extremely important "Ear Training" exercise .

Whether you just tune the "beats out" of your open strings or use the "harmonics" method ... the practice of hearin' open strings "come into tune" is Invaluable ...

Once you are playing ... you are going to have to rely on your ears to get your notes, intervals and chords in tune anyway(straight or slant bar) ... and it sure is easier to do when you have the experience and training that "tunin' by ear" gives you.

I certainly don't have perfect pitch, relative pitch, fast pitch or even slow pitch

and I need a reference note to start off (sorry Carl ... I use a cheap tuner for that E) ...

But I put learnin' to hear intervals and chords at the top of my "Take it to the Next Level" list ...

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

Jack Byrd · From: Kalamazoo, Michigan

I have a question for those of you who can only tune with the aid of a tuner. What happens when you are out on the job and the you forgot your tuner, the tuner malfunctions or is kaput for some reason. Since you have only learned or can tune up with a mechanical aid are you done for the evening or what? Do you have any back up other than a case full of tuners? Seems to me you leave yourself wide open to an embrassing situation. I think you would want to cover all bases and have a sure fire back up which would be tuning by intonation like Jerry described.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jack,

That is a poignant question. In that case, I use the method I have struggled with for years; I use my ears and either tune the beats out (JI) if I can hear the beats. If I can't, I use harmonics and tune the beats out.

Usually I have better luck with harmonics. But it is painfully slow for me and depending upon my hearing at any given moment, it takes longer or shorter amount of time. That is, if I am fresh in the morning a short time, if it is late and I am tired it may take forever.

This is why the tuner is such a wonderful blessing to me. As it never sleeps, is never tired, is never "off". It is precisely dead on every time and lightning fast.

Also, one of the most useful things is, I never wonder if one string is too flat or is it the other string that is too sharp. In other words, I never have to chase my tail. No matter the situation, noisy atmosphere or not, I can tune instantly and precisely and silently very fast every time.

For me it is a true blessing.

Thanks for asking dear friend,

carl

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Sir, for those who cannot tune up without the use of a tuner you have answered your own question.

In as much as the players who CAN tune up without a tuner your question does not apply.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

For those of you that sing the praises of electronic tuning devices/machines: How many of you have ever compared your "E" note with the half dozen or so other tuners that are being used by others in the group?
It is not uncommon to find/hear tuners that are no where near where your own might be. So what do you have then? Each guy used "HIS" tuner to get in tune.... IN TUNE with WHOM? Five "in tune" instruments that are totally out of tune with each other in the group is a real night mare.....try it sometime..........eh? One doesn't have to be a whole tone sharp or flat to be out of tune with others in the group. Just a micro
"flat" or "sharp" is sufficient to ruin a steel players' entire evening. Been there; experienced that!

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Ray, I'll admit that I haven't compared the band's tuners in several years, but the last time I did, they all matched. I believe all the newer "digital-type" tuners get their reference pitch from a crystal or a chip, the same as newer watches do. They all seem to have the same accuracy to me.

Kenny Dail · From: Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.

As I see it, getting in tune with the band is very important, however, the most important thing is being in tune with yourself. If you are in tune with yourself, your instincts will naturally come into play so that your intonation will adjust to play "with the band". I don't mind open strings occaisionally but, I usually avoid them so I can adjust to the band if I am not with them.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

I seldom rely on tuners, but they sure come in handy at times. For example, ever try playing a bakelite Rickenbacker out in the hot sun ? It will go out of tune in no time. When that happens and there is a pile of noise all around you, to rely on your ears is almost impossible. That's where the tuner comes in. Most tuners (of quality) are accurate to the A-440 pitch. The cheapies leave much to be desired.

Having "Perfect Pitch" (if such really exists), is great until you come up against a piano which is drastically out of tune. Musicians who have "PP" go bonkers when that happens. I have a son who has "PP", (which I don't have). One day, I was tuning my bass fiddle in one room, he was in another. He called out to me, "Dad, your 'A' string is slightly flat". It sounded ok to me however, when I put a tuner near the bass fiddle, it proved he was correct.

I don't have a guilt trip using a tuner under some circumstances. Even in the Big Band (17 pieces), our leader will often check the sections, (trumpets, trombones and saxes), for proper intonation using an electronic tuner. It's a great invention, why not use it when circumstances are such ?

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Jerry Byrd, I believe, makes his statements about tuners as an instructor of the steel guitar making statements to a student of the steel,___and rightly so. I'm sure that he has taught many students.

Practicing tuning, he realizes is how one learns to tune. This man is no dummy. I'm sure he would want his students to have the competence to tune without a tuner.

I would also bet that he would not discourage an accomplished player from using a tuner in a situation with loud background noise, or one that plays a complex double neck pedal guitar.

Who do you trust? To me the truth is in the delivery. Does this man deliver? This man delivers.

Rick

Jesse Pearson · From: San Diego , CA

Ray has a good point, tuners were screwy at first, but I think checking with a tuning fork should tell you what's up and if you should recalibrate the tuner if your model allows that. I have to admit I haven't seen any problems over the last so many years with tuners being out with each other.

I think starting out with a tuner is good as a point of reference for one's relative pitch, but by all means also learn to tune without anything but a pitch fork in the beginning and learn the science of JI/EI.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 10 September 2003 at 12:35 PM.]

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

I agree with Rick 100% Jerry is one helluva instructor....no question. I agree also that Jerry would not scorn an electronic tuner if the circumstances warranted the use of one. The "ear" (well trained), is always the best, but often extreniating noises leave one little choice but to grab for the tuner.

Mike Ihde · From: Boston, MA

Having perfect pitch is rare and not always a blessing. Having a well developed relative pitch is much more useful. How many times have you changed all the strings, tuned them to pitch and then checked them with a fork or a tuner and discovered you were mighty close to being right on? Have you listened to a tune in your head and then played it on steel in the same key ?(give or take a fret). If someone asks me what pitch that was, I can guess within a half step because I know what E sounds like and then run a scale from E to the pitch in question. Do you know most hums from lights, amps etc are a Bb? You can use that as a starting point sometimes.
Bill Leavitt once drew a cartoon that was all black (to indicate people in the dark) except for 2 word balloons that read,"Hey man, tune that guitar" the other said,"I can't, I can't see my tuner"

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

I tune my first two strings with a tuner, but can tune the other six strings using harmonics off the first two.

I also use the electronic tuner to change from one tuning to another mid song. Since my tuner is also a mute switch, I can tune silently between solos and fills.

Chris

Jeff Strouse · From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA

I'm with Rick Aiello, in that it's an "Ear Training Exercise" - it takes time and practice to be able to tune this way, but in the long run it pays off. Like Jack says...what do you do if there's no electronic tuner avaialable and you have to tune? It's like basic math and a calculator...if you forget how to do it without the calculator, you're up a creek when one isn't around!

I use a pitch pipe or a tuning fork for my "E", then I tune all the other strings to it. If I'm ever unsure, or if something doesn't sound right, I blow that particular note on the pitch pipe, tune the particular string down flat, and try to tune it back up to the right pitch again.

I then play it with another string to see (or hear) if I'm right. When it "sounds right" (in harmony with the other string), I move to the next string, and so on. I play the first few strings to hear my results...if it doesn't sound right, I start over. Sometimes I get to the fifth or sixth string, and the second or third doesn't sound right anymore. Back to square one!! Usually a couple of the lower strings are simply octaves to some higher ones, so those can be tuned easily, in harmony with the higher pitched one. Over time, it gets quicker. I do have an electronic tuner, and use it once in a blue moon.

Here's an example of a time where it was really handy being able to tune by ear. A couple of friends were over, who had never seen a steel guitar played. They said, "Play something for us." Well, I had it tuned to a "new" tuning I really wasn't familiar with yet; but, rather than having them wait while I ran upstairs to find my electonic tuner, make sure there was a battery in it, plug it into the guitar, then fidget around with it to tune the guitar back to a tuning I was familiar with,. ..all I simply did was turn a couple of tuners, picking those particular strings at that same time as strings that weren't changing (to check the harmony,) and I was instantly in a tuning I felt more comfortable playing in.

I wouldn't have been able to do that without practice, though. So loooong story short, rather than having them wait 5 minutes while I tuned up, I picked up the guitar and could play something for them.

Even though I can barely play a standard guitar, I was bumming around in a music store one time, and took a guitar down off the wall to take it for a test drive. It was out of tune. One of the kids who worked there just happen to be close by, and eagerly said, "Wait a second and I'll tune it for 'ya." But to my surprise he walked away, up to the front of the store by the counter. I figured he was waiting on a paying customer, So, I plucked the A string (5th) of another guitar that was in tune, and tuned my A string to it. Then, I tuned the 5 other strings, checking them in harmony with the A string. He came back a couple of minutes later with a tuner in hand, and I was already strumming chords! He said to me, "Sorry that took so long, but someone else was using the tuner...I thought your guitar was out of tune?"

"Not anymore."

Just my two cents (with two long stories), for what it's worth.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I tune the lap steel by ear at home, but I know where the notes should be on the meter. On a gig it's just faster to use the meter. My tuning meter doesn't have any buttons to push, except on/off.

In a noisy environment, my eyes are more discerning than my ears.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 12 Sep 2003 1:57 am

For years I tuned by ear after obtaining a reference note from a reliable source. In loud (or quiet for that matter-wedding ceremonies etc.) environments I would use a small headphone amp so I could hear the beats. This works fine for my Emmons but for a bakelite Rick it is a pain in the butt, especially when you change tunings a lot or don't use it for a few tunes then pick it up again. It can be done and it doesn't require perfect pitch or even perfect reletive pitch, you just need to know what an in-tune interval sounds like.
My beloved V-SAM has changed all of this. I programmed it for my tunings and it works like a charm. The only difficult part is trying to explain to your fellow bandmates why you spent $250 on a tuner when they got theirs for $12.99!
Also, I checked -out five cheapo tuners and their "c's" were all accurate.

[This message was edited by Cartwright Thompson on 12 September 2003 at 02:59 AM.]

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

I can tune by ear. I can do it fairly quickly and acurately but I'm with Carl - the tuner never has a bad day, never catches a cold, and never gets tired. It simply lets me get to playing music faster. Now, if someone would only clue in the fiddle player to how sour HE sounds compared to the rest of the band!

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I once knew a fellow steel player whose EAR was so badly out of tune/untrained, that instead of hearing an identifiable note on records he was playing and then tuning to it, he actually went out and purchased a dozen or more record/turntables since the one he had was not accurately in tune with his guitar. His guitar had to be in tune, you see, as he'd tuned it with a tuning fork.
Just a passing tho't.

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