Vertical Knee Lever ergonomics

Joseph Lazo · From: Wisconsin, USA

I have a VKL on my guitar. I've got my seat height set where it feels right, but using the VKL requires moving my foot away from the pedals and lifting my knee to the point only the ball of my foot is on the floor. If I keep my foot hovering over the pedals, I have to lift my foot completely off the ground to engage the VKL. So, I don't even use it. I think if I were closer to the lever, I'd be inadvertently nudging it...so that's not good.

When you use your VKL, do you keep your foot hovering over the pedals and raise your foot completely off the ground, or do you reposition your foot in front of the pedals and lift your foot so just the ball of your foot is on the ground?

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

My VKL raises my 1st and 7th strings to G, so it is used most when I have the A and B pedals pressed, giving me the leverage to activate it. There are occasional licks where I use the lever alone, and that requires lifting my foot or anchoring my foot on the ground, kind of like if I was wearing high heels. Lifting your foot off the floor at times is a fact of life on a pedal steel with vertical levers.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Do you fellas not have adjustable vertical levers? I never understood why adjustable verticals where not standard on all PSG's. If a lever is uncomfortable to use it's going show in your playing.At least that's my experience. b.

John Ely · From: Minneapolis Minnesota, USA

Whaterver ergonomic method you decide on, the most important key to doing it SUCCESSFULLY is to do it thousands of time. Maybe pick one or two licks/phrases that incorporate using your VKL, and practice those phrases 20 or more time per day for weeks...?
Good luck.
John
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John Ely (but I'm not THE John Ely who played with Asleep at the Wheel).

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

This was my cure for a MSA Classic LKV. On the right end of the wood is a lock, So the wood can be removed to put the guitar in its case.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I use my vert a lot. Lowering the b's and split tuning with the A pedal. Fine tuning the ergonomics is essential. 'Just right' for me is barely hanging above my thigh but not interfering with any lateral lever action.
Several modern guitars have an added, folding stem/knuckle to enable adequate dangle (but can still fold up in the case). My short legs need to max out this stem. My Williams's stem was custom machined to get it low enough. Mullen offers an extension knuckle.

Lacking such engineering, Bobby D. Jones's solution is along the lines of stuff I've done on other guitars. Some older guitars have such high and unadjustable verts as to render them 'they might as well not even be there' without the ingenuity of some home-cures.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

My Emmons LKV used to be unusable: way out of range for my short legs.

I can't remember what used to be on it. For me, B to Bb is a vital pull - with or without pedals-down - so LKV was the last place I'd have put that change. For decades, I have lowered the Bs on RKL.

Last Summer, Junior Mercer worked on my guitar and added a very clever extender. It lowered the vertical by over an inch and made it a viable KL again. It did NOT work as B to Bb-lower for me, however (I tried it there).

I acquired Junior's JCH and discovered how easy it is to raise 1,2,7 on RKL (that's how his JCH was set up)! The hunt was on for a new location for B-Bb.

I tried lowering 5/10 on P4 (as per Travis T) but I lost some combinations.

Next, I moved the B/Bb to my LKL2 - Eureka!! That's ideal (and that's where it is at this point), but it meant moving the 9/6/3-lower to LKV. Once again, I find I shy away from using that pull. Okay, it's not a premier change, so I can manage, but it doesn't feel good, pushing upwards to lower strings. It's also a bit of an effort: I could try adjusting things so that the pull happens quicker and with less effort.

I have a feeling that LKV will be used to raise the 6th to A# (currently on P4); P4 can maybe handle lowering 3 and 6 (I can get the 9th-lower on RKR). If LKV is raising a single string, that could be the answer.
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WHY didn't Emmons make LKV infinitely adjustable??
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Paul Awalt · From: Greenwich, Ct.

I had Mullen put this option on all mine.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Frank Freniere · From: The First Coast

Shout-out for Doug Earnest’s ZumEncore LKV - he seems to have figured the ergonomics out. I could never use the LKV on my push-pull or Carter D-10: too short & couldn’t get it to sit right.

Bill C. Buntin · From: Cleburne TX

I never really have had a vertical that I’ve ever been completely comfortable with. Mine raises f#’s to g# and the d# to E. But is adjustable. And I have it at least usable, although it still is awkward a bit. I used to lower the b notes with it. Which is probably a better change for me on that lever. I know to not have it engage too quickly. One of those love / hate things for me. These are all good ideas though. I like that extension device shown. I have thought about putting a split on it to get a half tone raise on 1&7 with ab down. But putting the b lowers on it is probably where I will end up. Maybe?

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

I would never have the F#'s to G#'s on any vertical even a Franklin. Half tone raises and lowers work great on most any guitar.My favorite is the 6th string whole tone lower split tuned. Is connected high in the bellcrank for a very short throw. I also lower string 7 1/2 tone with this lever. It's like you use it and never even think about it. It's that easy. I lower my E's on the LKR. So I use the LKR and the vertical at the same time when needed.
Edited to say. I did this back when I still played. Gave it up 9 years ago for a host of reasons. Health being the main reason.
b.

D Schubert · From: Columbia, MO, USA

The LKV on my GFI Expo can be lowered where I can engage it with my average-height knee. B to Bb lower on 2 strings. The lever sits loosely on my left knee at an angle and there is a bit of slack but I can easily engage it with the A and B pedals down.

As I recall, I replaced the set screw with a longer set screw to make this happen. I can't remember if it was 1/2" to 3/4" or 3/8" to 5/8"
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GFI Expo S-10PE, Sho-Bud 6139, Fender 2x8 Stringmaster, Supro consoles, Dobro. And more.

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

Joe, IMO, the perfect vert. position is perfectly horizontal. One good way to achieve this is to fabricate or have fabricated, a lever that goes vertical from the the cross shaft to the correct height bends and then straight and horizontal the rest of the way. Consistency can be found.😍
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Things got way better for me when Junior Mercer, while servicing my Emmons, found this gizmo in one of his endless stashes of spares.

Now, it's an eminently usable lever; I have the 6th (G# to A# raise on it).

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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Some guitar designs makes it easier to craft parts for them than others. Of course a few shop tools are still necessary. Drill, thread taps, screwdrivers, wrenches, hammer etc. and a place to do it.

Because it was too tall for me, I made up some longer knee levers for my Fender Artist Dual Pro, [Same mechanics as S/B Super Pro] in lieu of cutting everything down.

The 1/4 in. width of the KL brackets/hubs made it easy to find aluminum channel that fit perfectly on them.

I was able to craft a vert lever that fits on the existing hub using the channel and a blank of 1/4 in. flat alum stock to extend the height. It is also adjustable for tilt/angle.

I made this one longer because I wanted to use it on the rear neck too and that's the reason for the offset as it wasn't long as I wanted for use with the C neck.

Installed the flat stock in the channel, drilled and installed roll pins, tension pins whatever you like to call them, then used a bolt with a finger knob and a nylon insert wing nut so it's removable for quick and easy case up. Just takes a minute.

.

Jay Coover · From: Nashville, TN, USA

There should be some adjustment for it. I have mine all the way down. A lot of folks have it set up as a flat 5 that also splits with the A pedal, so a lot of times you might be toe down on that A pedal. Mine wasn't ideal at first, but I got it to where I like it. Gotta have sneakers on for me to feel comfortable, but it's pretty good now on mine.

Look for a set screw near the fulcrum point that will make it engage at a lower point, perhaps. YMMV
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GFI Expo S-10 3x5
Goodrich 120

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Roger, can you close your case with that extension on? I have mine extended to far to close the case. So I had em rig it so the vertical folds over backwards for transport. b.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Deleted. Redundant post.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Bobby

That's a moot point these days, because my guitar no longer leaves the house. It could, though, but I would need to release the two wing-nuts and take it off.

Thanks for sharing the pictures!
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Joseph Lazo · From: Wisconsin, USA

Ok, just a weird thought I had today...

What if instead of a VKL the guitar had another "pedal" installed that is activated by an upward movement of one's foot? It would be located to the left of the A pedal, and sit higher than the A pedal. It wouldn't look like a typical pedal, though. More like a horizontal lever. Which is why I put "pedal" in quotes in my first reference.

Seems like there would be much less repositioning of one's foot to use such a pedal vs a VKL. You could keep your heel on the ground and raise your toes just enough to activate the lever.

Someone who actually knows something about steel guitars, please feel free to elaborate on either why this wouldn't work, or how it might possibly work.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Joseph Lazo · From: Wisconsin, USA

Not sure the movement would be any more awkward than raising your leg up, but it definitely would make it impossible to do while holding down a pedal at the same time. That's something I had not considered. (Doh!)

John Hyland · From: South Australia

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