Theory Question: Extended D13th

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 2 Sep 2024 5:39 am

Johnny Cox’s D13th is built on a 12-string frame, that is logically based on what Johnny had, and what is commercially available for most players. Does remaining on 12-strings limit the potential of this tuning? Could the tuning become more prominent if extended to 13 or 14 strings?

I have laid out a few possibilities below, comparing each to the 12-string setup that Johnny and others have been using. I would appreciate a constructive conversation about the merits of these options and seeing what the forum has to say with more experienced players.

The biggest question that I have, is there enough musical opportunities in a 13-string or 14-string guitar to justify the additional challenge of finding (or more likely building or converting) such an instrument for an Extended D13th guitar?

*12-String:

Pro - Commercial Availability is there, most companies have 12-string guitars and pickups.
Pro - Availability of used guitars to convert to D13th.

Con - Large interval gap between string 11[5th] and string 12 [Root].
Con - Nothing below the string 12 [Root]

*Building a 13-String:

Pro - Shorten the interval gap between String 11 [5th] and string 12 [Root], by inserting a new F# [3rd] interval between the two.
Pro - Permits the lower intervals and chord inversions found on Extended E9th and Universal E9th/B6th tunings.

Con - Would require a custom-built guitar, either by a manufacturer or by converting a D10 Guitar with additional machine shop work (key head, etc.). I’m not aware of a commercial 13-string guitar being built today.
Con - Require a custom-built Pickup, and R&D to voice it correctly.

*Building a 14-String:

Pro - Adding a further lower interval below Cox’s 12th String, either as a B [6th] similar to string 5, or as an A [5th] similar to Universal E9th/B6th.
Pro - Continues building on lower intervals and chord inversions found on Extended E9th and Universal E9th/B6th tunings.
Pro - Could become a tuning that can truly accomplish the Universal concept where a single neck can cover E9th, C6th, Extended E9th, Universal E9th/B6th, and therefore further the playability of the instrument across genres without the need to learn different tunings.

Con - Would require a custom-built guitar, either by a manufacturer or by converting a D10 guitar with additional machine shop work (key head, etc.).
Con - Require a custom-built Pickup, and R&D to voice it correctly.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning

Bill McCloskey · Posted 2 Sep 2024 7:12 am

I don't see any advantage to extending it to 13 or 14 strings and I see a lot of disadvantages. Right now, the D13 tuning is setup with the exact same intervals as E9 with the added root on the bottom and the 6th on string 5. It makes it very easy to translate E9 to D13.

You already have a root, 5th and flat 7 on the bottom 3 strings. Adding a 3rd on those bass strings will just muddy it up and I'd much rather have a root or a 5th on the bottom than a 3rd. And the grips lay out nicely and it is nice to have the 7,9,11 major triad grip.

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

I agree with Bill on that. I think a 13th string low B on the bottom would be nice though
(and it would be relatively out of the way)..
If you ever played C6th with a low A on the bottom then you know how nice it can be for minor chords.
I also heard Johnny Cox say that is the only thing he would add.

I never played a 14 string before (old Sierras? what else?) Is the spacing different?

Bill McCloskey · Posted 3 Sep 2024 7:21 am

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

Bill McCloskey · Posted 3 Sep 2024 10:36 am

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

Bill McCloskey · Posted 3 Sep 2024 1:06 pm

Slowly but surely I've stopped thinking in E9 or C6th. Starting to think in D13.

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 3 Sep 2024 6:15 pm

These are the sort of points that I was looking for when I started this post, thanks for the insight.

I've been playing D13th for about 2 years, and see the whole neck as one tuning now.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 6 Sep 2024 6:44 am

I am sure there is more experience and opinions out there on this topic.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning

Andrew Frost · From: Toronto, Ontario

I would think a low B would fit nicely on the bottom of D13. I understand you get that note on the equivalent of C6 pedal 8, but a low independent root of the Bm7 aspect, that isn't tied up in that B7#9 voicing prob would be useful. Also, you could drop said low B string a whole tone to A, somewhere, to good effect. Possibly on the lever that lowers root notes to get an A7/A9 with the B pedal. This is all theoretical of course. You could probably spend a lifetime on 12 strings and still be discovering possibilities..

Joe A. Roberts · From: Seoul, South Korea

And just as the raising the tuning from C6 to D6 makes an extra low B string with lowers down to A more practical, the lowering of the E9th side to D opens up the possibility of having a high G or G# string with raises up to high A.
The only time you get any "G# strings" in the tuning are when using pedal 6 (aka pedal 5 on C6th).
So having a G# string suddenly always available gives a new chord tone available to experiment with when using every other lever and pedal on the instrument.
Would give a nice 13th on top when using P5 (C6th P8) for instance.

Also thin high G# or A strings have a unique glassy sound on steel guitar, so it gives a greater tonal range. That string would open up a lot of bell-like ringing lick possibilities. It could be placed it "in order" after the F#, or out of the way as the first string.

So, hypothetically, with 14 strings, you could have a low B and high G# on the outsides with anything you've learned on the original D13th unchanged in the middle.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Years ago I attempted many ways to extend Johnny's D13 to 14 strings, because I normally play 14. I found that I couldn't really add much to the tuning except maybe some of my idiosyncrasies. It's very clear that Johnny has thought about D13 a ton: it's a very elegant and refined universal tuning.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Benjamin:

I briefly tried D13th but, for various reasons (the efficacy of the tuning was NOT one of them), I went back to a D10.

I see a case for extending it to thirteen or fourteen strings, but the reality is that our instrument will always have its limitations. How far to go? That's the question.

When I have my weekly chat with pianist Mike Bell - a highly accomplished jazz player who's the solver of all inversion-related puzzles - he's always expressing his dismay at what we have to go through to achieve what he can do by merely placing up to ten fingers on his keyboard. I'll say: 'That's going to be tricky, because both my Es lower when I hit that lever... (for example)', and he says 'How do you cope with that all the time?'

Johnny gets endless inspiring voicings and progressions on his tuning, but he's playing what HE wants to play. Who's to say if D13th would suffice for any musical quest?

Pedal steel starts out by encumbering us; perseverance opens some doors, but not all.

PS: While thinking in 'one tuning' is ideal, the genius in his D13th is that it's the best-ever true universal (in my humble opinion). It is still, however, a steel guitar.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

How far to go indeed, Roger? When does the obsession with ever more chords and voicings and adding strings and more mechanics itself become a limitation? It certainly didn’t take long for some of us to contemplate that maybe the Johnny Cox ultimate D13 Universal wasn’t quite universal enough. A pedal steel is not a piano, nor does it ever hope or want to be one.

I agree with Greg Cutshaw’s comment in this thread
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=341859&highlight=cover

My own thinking is that the pedal steel guitar can fit into just about any musical setting, and the videos and audios of great players pulling it off are out there to prove this fact. Ultimately, the way you set up your guitar is your own business, just as is the music you play on it.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Indeed! I am a Mathematician by training, and at one point tried to "solve" the copedent "problem." I looked at all kinds of copedents and variations. I eventually confirmed to myself that the main copedents are great and have stood the test of time for a reason, and that there really is no way to have it all, all the time. Playing with a bar and the mechanical constraints of the instrument lead to limitations that more pedals, knees, and strings can't fix. Some interval or change or movement will be unavailable somewhere, some time.

I then switched my focus to a copedent that would provide all the options that I personally want. This does seem solvable, at least for me. In fact I think I've solved it. I think Johnny's D13 is his solution for his needs, and this is why, for him, it has everything. I think D13 could become the standard universal tuning that people use instead of E9/B6. Judging by the interest on the forum it certainly has a shot.

Benjamin Davidson · Posted 10 Sep 2024 6:37 am

I appreciate all the feedback this thread got. I have a lot to go over.

I may need to re-rod and setup my S10 in a couple of stages to see what translates for me and my playing style. The first of those is setting up the bottom 10 strings of a 14-string copedent (B thru A on the bottom) and the other for the top 10 strings and try that G# on top with the chromatics.

That will take some time, but will definitively provide the answer as it relates to my playing and the plans moving forward.

Thanks to every one of y'alls comments here.
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Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

I would love to hear what you discover, Benjamin! After all, I only thought about this, I never actually put together a D13 guitar.

Cheers!

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