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Topic: Are there any single note JAZZ/Bebop players out here? |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 9 May 2024 3:36 am |
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I started out on non-pedal in my late teens playing Hillbilly music, discovering Byrd, Speedy and the gang. Later ventured into PSG, E9th, C6th and Universal and went back non-pedal in around 2000.
I play S12 PSG now, but elected to relearn the tuning only playing single note without using the pedals. Something I wanted to learn 2 Decades ago.
So, I dedicated the last 3 years pretty much exclusively to that, which has given me a totally different perspective on the C6th tuning and, the use of pedals and levers and steel guitar in general.
Every other month I quickly stop by here on the non-pedal forum, on which I participated over 2 decades ago, however without finding much on Jazz, Bebop or even Swing.
Anybody out there?
... J-D.
_________________
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Len Cascia
From:
Worthington, MA, USA
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Posted 9 May 2024 5:19 am Bird Lives?
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JD, Always enjoyed your contributions here over the years, Thanks.
And yes, I am sure you are not alone, we are out there. IMHO, I would think that at least 50% of all steel players (ambitious-wise) are into the jazz/bebop/swing genres. At least that's been my experience (to my surprise). |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 9 May 2024 5:37 am
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| Dale Rottacker wrote: |
I'm not one of those BeBop single note Jazz players, and pretty much being musically illiterate not understanding all the in's and out's of the theory behind it. I'm mostly a pattern map it out player, so I'm gonna watch this with interest in hopes that something will click and I'll learn something.
Always enjoy reading your knowledge and observations |
Music on a fingered stringed instrument, group which the steel guitar is part of, IS a relationship of "patterns", "shapes", "geometries" etc which we should associate to expected/desired "sounds", "licks", "clichés" and "lines" which should ideally from "changes" (going from one chord to another).
Some theory... theoriES, really, is needed at first while "organizing neck" (as Maurice Anderson called that early must-go-thru process). From there on, "pockets" form and get explored and ultimately connected.
On PSG C6th there are several roots VISIBLE in the lower register of strings (Maurice called them "Trackers" since a particular Chord QUALITY tracks along each string up and down the frets) and some can be imagined or added on an extended tuning like I have... an example of "imaginable trackers" would be looking at the 9th string (F open)... being the root tracker for Major chords up and down the neck also having a relative minor... (D open and F then being the minor third of that chord being tracked up and down).
Pockets build off each tracker, again up and down the neck, their relationship (the different trackers) travel along, resulting in 4 main trackers, creating 4 positions, each off a different root trackers spread out along a fretted octave about every 3rd fret (not exactly). That relationship allow one to play from any fret thru all 12 keys in a space of 3 frets! If you can learn the roots relationship of 4 clusters, you can play ANYWHERE thru all 12 chords in Major/minor/Dom/HalfDim/Dim within 3 frets. Essentially, you have to learn 4 systems, every melody, every lick, line, cliché 4 times. That's all there is to it.
I would love to form a group of like interested people to meet online and share.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Daniel Baston
From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 May 2024 7:07 am
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Well, I am working on it. Give me 5-10 years maybe? Haha. E13 is great for single note stuff as well. I use the "Vance Terry" E13 variant (high to low):
E C# B G# F# D B G#
Goes really well with a 6th tuning, they work well for different things (talking about single note playing here, to be on-topic). I use A6, but C6 fits well too, just 3 frets difference. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 May 2024 7:13 am
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Yes, I do play single note and chordal jazz solos, mostly swing but some bop...and trad jazz.
I'm a New Orleans born jazz musician, have played regular guitar, bass, tenor banjo and mandolin in jazz bands of all styles since I was a teenager, and have played professionally since 1972 and was in the AFM from 1977 to 1992 working hotels, riverboats, and theater.
I'm also a graduate of the University of New Orleans with a Master's in Music, so I have good reading skills but also play by ear. My teachers required both skills.
Mostly I use A6 and the C6 w/ low Bb (Ah See tuning) and have fun seeing what I can do with the steel guitar. |
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rodger_mcbride
From:
Minnesota
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Posted 9 May 2024 7:38 am
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Similar journey... looking forward to Red Hot Strings and Weiser, Idaho to meet like minded players...
Any suggestions about similar picking opportunities amongst the various festivals and seminars around the USA and Internationally would be informative.
Currently exploring the underdog F#9 tuning variations.
Rodger |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 9 May 2024 7:58 am
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| I would love to form a group of like interested people to meet online and share. |
I would be interested in something like that. I've been mapping out "trackers" (although I didn't call them that) for EVERY unique open string and working out the interval relationships. Now that I'm playing a D12 crossover, the extended C6th neck has really gotten my interest.
BTW, I assume you've heard Rich Arnold? if not, check out his "dobro jazz" youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@richarnold9434 |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 9 May 2024 8:29 am
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In an attempt to clear up a few common misconceptions about improvising jazz on steel, I offer up these two points:
1. The more simple the tuning, the better for improvisation. You definitely want to have some strings tuned a major 2nd apart, such as in C6 with the G and A strings, to more easily play chromatic lines, but it is also important that you know the tuning inside/out. A 6th tuning offers some level of symmetry, which is extremely useful. There is no need to have a tuning that spells out altered chords for single lines. It's more about having a structure in your tuning that allows for ease of navigation.
2. Chords on a chart are merely a suggestion. You don't have to play all the "right" notes in a chord; in fact, it's better when you can move away from that practice and begin to establish new harmonies. Extended chords are nothing but triads stacked on top of each other, so really understanding chord construction will help you to zero in on a sound. For example, G7alt chords could be treated as Ab minor. Players like Pat Martino did not even care if playing an Ab Dorian scale over G7 included an F#. These are things that you learn to harness and use to your advantage. Sometimes chord changes/progressions can be summarized down to essentials, which makes substitutions even more effective and manageable.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 9 May 2024 9:41 am Re: Are there any single note JAZZ/Bebop players out here?
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
Every other month I quickly stop by here on the non-pedal forum, on which I participated over 2 decades ago, however without finding much on Jazz, Bebop or even Swing.
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Is this what you're looking for?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UftGo9VdE_k
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 9 May 2024 9:55 am
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I have dabbled in Ellington, Mingus, Monk, Stuff Smith and similar material. I am not academically knowledgeable but am intuitive and melodic with taste and timing making up for my many insufficiencies. I had a trio with a great bass player who made my dumbest moves sound REALLY creative. He passed away and I miss him dearly. I haven’t dabbled since.
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KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Donner, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, GFI, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 10 May 2024 2:45 am
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OK, I don't play single line bebop on lap steel. For whatever reason, that sound just never grabbed me. But I do play bebop on guitar, and this same principle likely transfers to steel.
While I know a TON of jazz theory, the best lines I get come from this approach...
1. Get a recording of the chord changes.
2. Record yourself singing/scatting an improvised solo over those recorded chord changes.
3. Go back and transcribe what you sang and figure out how to play it on your instrument.
I've found this approach produces better musical outcomes than looking at the fretboard and using it as a map to improvise from. Especially with phasing and timing.
The more you do this, the easier it will become to improvise on your instrument without having to sing/transcribe. You eventually get the point where you can "sing" with your hands. 
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 10 May 2024 2:54 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
Music on a fingered stringed instrument, group which the steel guitar is part of, IS a relationship of "patterns", "shapes", "geometries" etc which we should associate to expected/desired "sounds", "licks", "clichés" and "lines" which should ideally from "changes" (going from one chord to another).
Some theory... theoriES, really, is needed at first while "organizing neck" (as Maurice Anderson called that early must-go-thru process). From there on, "pockets" form and get explored and ultimately connected.
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This is true.
I play many stringed instruments (guitar, bass, mandolin, fiddle, banjo, charango, and lap steel (8 string: C6, Leavitt, and C9; and 6 string: C6, B11, Leavitt, and Open E), resonator (open G).
The first thing I do when learning a new stringed instrument or tuning is learn a few fingerings/patterns for the major scales and the minor pentatonic scales. After doing that, the fingerboard starts to make sense and I'm able to start making music.
I tell my students, "A string is a string, no matter what instrument it is on. When you figure out how to play one stringed instrument, moving on to different stringed instruments is not that hard."
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https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 10 May 2024 6:06 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
I would love to form a group of like interested people to meet online and share.
... J-D. |
I would be interested in that. I would say "isn't that what we are doing here?" but I know a lot of people on the forum are not into jazz, and some even seem to get annoyed and play spoiler when we geek out on theory and such. My whole reason for picking up (now sitting in front of) a steel guitar was to learn more advanced theory/application, specifically chord soloing. I have played folk and blues guitar for a long time, but I really wanted to expand my chord and song construction knowledge. I would listen to Breau, Farlow, and lots of finger style guitarists like Duck Baker and really want to tap into those types of complex chords. That is starting to improve, but music being music, you get near the top of one mountain and you start to see more mountains. I am starting to realize a lot of what I thought were really crazy chords, are really just pretty simple 3 or 4 note voicings, but they might be spelling something complicated and they are not static. Its voice leading. Studying functional harmony is a game changer. It is really helpful to interact with musicians who have already navigated this territory. Hopefully my clumsy ascent is in some way helpful to others.
As far as Jazz goes it is such a broad field, I would say I am mostly interested in pre-Bop Jazz. My favorite soloists are from the transitional period or very early BeBop. Lately Lester Young. Mostly I love solo guitar and piano players. One thing I don't understand is guitar players who don't play chords, and the same would go for steel. I do love Jimmy Raney and Tal Farlow when they are realing off those incredible single note lines, but it is their chord playing that really grabs my ear. Endless Bebop lines (or forum responses, sorry!) really start to bore me. They almost make me hate jazz. Miles Davis brought back that use of space that I really like. It makes Jazz much more listenable. There are so many approaches to soloing on steel guitar. Playing with intention seems to be the hallmark of the best players. Every line is just packed with information, sometimes mind boggling! I play with pedals, but you can only rely on them so much. One of the most important concepts I am always grappling with is economy of movement, which is leading me back to more non pedal style playing. Favorite steel soloist is Vance Terry hands down pedals or no, that was the guy.
My wife had me listen to a podcast to help me understand why she hates jazz. It is an absolute hoot! The great comedy writer Mike Reiss https://www.jazzinspired.com/browse-shows/mike-reiss |
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BJ Burbach
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 May 2024 2:23 pm
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I've played blues, country rock, etc, but all I ever wanted was for my thumb to be Charles Mingus and my three fingers to be George Adams, not looking for every note, either I think that switching to eight string steels is helping.
BJ
Last edited by BJ Burbach on 29 Oct 2024 2:21 am; edited 6 times in total |
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Roland Sturm
From:
Santa Monica, CA
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Posted 13 May 2024 7:13 pm
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Count me in as well. Now, I'm a newcomer to playing with a bar, started 2 years ago, and I also like playing acoustically (dobro). All on 8 string, mostly G6. Now, there is no doubt, steel is much more limiting compared to a regular guitar for single note playing. Like a trombone vs sax here. But it opens new ideas. A few Charlie Parker lines seem to lie better on the steel/dobro than on the regular guitar (most don't), a few can be tweaked to lie well on the steel/dobro and, voila, something new!
Because I'll be working in Brazil this fall, recently I worked up the Bossa classics (I plan taking a lap steel with me). With more gentle soloing. Bebop? Well, Rich Arnold is a long way ahead on dobro, maybe in a year I post some. https://soundcloud.com/roland-sturm-2/popular-tracks |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 14 May 2024 8:17 am
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I'm not a great at it, but whenever I am playing jazz, I tend to devolve into single note stuff. I'm very chordal when playing Hawaiian music (at least the hapa haole stuff that is very jazz inspired) but my old group, rhythm guitarist was a jazz guy so we'd play a variety of jazz tunes. I just don't have the chops to throw a lot of chordal stuff into a jazz tune so most of the time my improvs are monophonic! Everything from hot club / Django stuff (where ironically the steel fits more into the role of Grappelli) to Coltrane (Equinox is a fun song to play on steel, so much soul...I like a bit of hair on the amp for that one).
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Bruce Roger
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 May 2024 6:33 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
In an attempt to clear up a few common misconceptions about improvising jazz on steel, I offer up these two points:
1. The more simple the tuning, the better for improvisation. You definitely want to have some strings tuned a major 2nd apart, such as in C6 with the G and A strings, to more easily play chromatic lines, but it is also important that you know the tuning inside/out.... |
Are there any other tunings similar to C6 — that I've used exclusively — that you recommend using that contain a major second interval? Is that why some PSG players use a D on top?
Thanks. Bruce |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 May 2024 8:27 am
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| Bruce Roger wrote: |
Are there any other tunings similar to C6 — that I've used exclusively — that you recommend using that contain a major second interval? Is that why some PSG players use a D on top?
Thanks. Bruce |
Check out the Billy Hew Len tapes where he describes his use of the A6 tuning. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 16 May 2024 4:52 pm
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Almost any 13th tuning is going to give you more than one pair of strings tuned a step apart: E13 spelled any number of ways usually has the B and C# and then an E and D adjacent to each other. C13 has the G and A strings and then Bb and C strings. These are 8 string tunings though.
Over the past few years, I have gotten away from improvising over tunes in a jazz approach, mostly to follow other interests and ideas, particularly my ragtime and stride arrangements, and also Indian style studies. These days I struggle to play over bebop changes and my chops for that aren't what they were on Keepin' It Real, but I am working my way back with some new ideas and approaches. My main focus has been rhythm changes and trying to learn a bunch of different heads and solos by Fats Navarro, Miles, etc. So many tunes were written over those changes.
Still keeping up with the rag arrangements and stuff, so maybe it will all meet somewhere in the middle.
One thing is for sure: if you want to play jazz, you have to have excellence as a goal. Chops and articulation need to be sharp. Buddy Emmons said jazz couldn't be played on steel guitar, or so I've heard. He may be wrong about that, but to freely improvise without playing pet licks and repeating yourself, and to do it on a high level like any other instrument, whether sax, piano, even bass--some bassists take the best damn solos you can imagine--is a really, really high bar.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Gary Spaeth
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 17 May 2024 5:01 am
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i am currently learning charlie christian's grand slam. you can use the guitar tab on c6 by adjusting the b string down one fret and play c string and lowering guitar d string 2 frets and play the low e on steel. e, g and a on the tab stay the same. if you read music then no problem.
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2024 3:21 pm
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| When you realize that nobody is playing bebop, Jazz or swing on lap steel, this is a golden opportunity! The game is therefore wide open and you can run the table because nobody else is doing it! Understand my reasoning? |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2024 9:12 am
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| Rich Arnold wrote: |
| When you realize that nobody is playing bebop, Jazz or swing on lap steel, this is a golden opportunity! The game is therefore wide open and you can run the table because nobody else is doing it! Understand my reasoning? |
If you have the audience for it, yes.
For the amount of work it takes to learn the tunes and techniques and improvisational theory and getting a combo together that has any sort of chemistry and camaraderie, if the audience response is relative indifference, demand is negligible, and the pay for Giant Steps is the same as it is for Gimme Three Steps, it is mostly a labor of love.
You do great work, Rich. So does Mike Neer. I’m glad you and others are able to broaden the horizons of the instrument and be compensated for it. |
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