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Topic: Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel |
Jim Hankins
From:
Yuba City, California, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2022 11:17 am |
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| Thank Jon ! That is it, right where your arrow was. yes that " washer " came out of one of those cracks between the fingers right out the top. I had to tug on it a little to pull it all the way out, it was tight. The cross shaft does not appear binding, with a little wiggle room present, consistent with the other shafts. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 3 Mar 2022 11:29 am
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I don't have a clue what's going on with that. I've never been inside the changer so I've got nothing to draw on.
I've got nothing more to offer.
You definitely should post this as its own topic. Not enough traffic here and you need way more than I've got. |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2022 12:12 pm
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| Really great Jon! |
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Detlef Webert
From:
Europe - DE
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Posted 20 Jan 2023 2:33 pm
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...very good description of the problem and how to fix and get around it.
very appreciated !
Detlef |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Jan 2023 3:10 pm
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Thanks.
This can be sneaky, too. I was recently troubleshooting some tuning inconsistency on one of my guitars. Spent way too much time trying to figure it out. Yep -- me, the author of this thread -- I was overtuned. I'd been trying some unusual split tunings and was concentrating too hard on the technical stuff and let the simple rod slack get away from me.  |
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Michael J Pfeifer
From:
New York NY 10036
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Posted 29 Sep 2023 3:58 pm Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel
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Hi, Jon,
Thanks for sharing this information. You said, "Anyone with tuning problems with their steels and uncertainties about what I've tried to describe in this post—ask away." I don't think I have the problems you describe here, but I'm not sure. The E-9th raises after releasing the B pedal, and the 6th string note returns flat. After releasing the lower RL knee lever, the note returns sharp. Backing off the nuts, there seems to be play for all strings being used, but I'm not sure. When nuts are tightened, should there still be wiggle room? How do I determine that for sure? |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 Sep 2023 4:11 am
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I don't know what more I can add to all the suggestions that people have provided you.
To check rod slack, simply grab the nylon nut and pull. If you can pull it off the the changer, the rod has slack. Also, with the guitar upside down, just move the levers back & forth and watch the nut. Or grab the rod and push in & out and watch. |
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Michael J Pfeifer
From:
New York NY 10036
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Posted 30 Sep 2023 4:46 am Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel Reply with
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Jon,
Okay. Thanks |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Michael J Pfeifer
From:
New York NY 10036
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Posted 30 Sep 2023 4:26 pm Overtuning (and Undertuning) an All-Pull Steel Reply with
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Dale,
Thanks for sharing. I think it is a case of overturning.I'm just not sure, but I will find out. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Oct 2023 3:34 am
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Jon - many thanks for the time you've taken to share your expertise.
I'm somewhat mystified by a recurring issue with my 4th pedal (LeGrande 111/ D-10).
It's constantly being changed on C6th. It's my 'try-out' pedal. It is, admittedly, pulling a lot of strings (three on E9 and two on C6) but it is very stodgy and requires effort to fully depress.
My question: why does this problem get worse when I put a 'lower' on C6 rather than a raise (or so it seems)?
Yesterday, I switched MKV with P4. My reasoning was that 'reverse P6' (lower 2nd E-Eb, raise 6th E-F) requires only a half-tone change on both strings and would be better on a vertical (less throw).
But, then I assigned the 6th string lower (E to D) to P4 and, while it satisfactorily tunes to the required pitch, it's really an effort to floor the pedal. It feel spongy and, frankly, unsuitable for its purpose (single-note lines needing a brisk pedal action).
This falls outside the 'Overtuning' issue (or does it?), thanks for any tips you may have.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Oct 2023 4:41 am
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Hey Roger. You are pushing the limits of my ability to visualize. I'm sometimes smart when I have my hands on a guitar and my nose in its underbelly. From afar, I might as well hold a seance.
However , regarding different feels of raises vs lowers -- the fundamental difference between raises & lowers is that raises have the string tension itself to ensure pitch return when you release the pedal/lever.
Lowers require the assistance of the return spring, otherwise the string would just stay relaxed and happy that you lowered it.
So if the return spring is adjusted with too much tension, the resistance of a lower could actually exceed the resistance of a raise.
Adjusting the return spring might make a difference.
Of course, inadequate spring tension will totally mess things up --- lowers and raises.
Everything affects everything. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Oct 2023 6:08 am
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Hi, Jon
Well, that's worth a try. Tomorrow, I'll upend the guitar again and see what I can see, bearing the spring-tension in mind.
Part of me has a feeling that things are getting mighty crowded around the changer, what with 9+8. I can't always route rods where I'd like to for appearance's sake and maybe there's some friction occurring.
Many thanks for your blindfolded analysis! 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Pierre James
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2024 10:27 am
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| For other new players out there, A pedal wouldn't move B to C# no matter how much I turned and I think it was the plastic nut was not tight enough or was slipping or something. After trying everything, the thing that fixed it was pushing out the nylon nut all the way (by pushing the A rod in the reverse direction in question) to let it all the way out, then unscrewing the nut completely and flipping it around (it had 2 holes) and putting it back in. I'm sure a new nut would have done the trick too. Odd because it's a brand new PSG, but glad to have it fixed |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 28 Mar 2024 8:49 pm
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Jon
Did you address initial setup regarding the return springs on the end of the changer. Since digging into my Franklin lately, I see (feel) that some changer fingers have lot more tension on them to return to the open position. This is manually moving the finger, not using a pedal. I would think just enough tension to bring the string back solidly and maybe a skosh for good measure, but too much initial tension could cause unwanted pedal stiffness?
bob |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 29 Mar 2024 2:29 am
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| Bob Snelgrove wrote: |
Jon
Did you address initial setup regarding the return springs on the end of the changer. Since digging into my Franklin lately, I see (feel) that some changer fingers have lot more tension on them to return to the open position. This is manually moving the finger, not using a pedal. I would think just enough tension to bring the string back solidly and maybe a skosh for good measure, but too much initial tension could cause unwanted pedal stiffness?
bob |
Bob -- I agree with that line "just enough tension to bring the string back solidly and maybe a skosh for good measure"
-but-
You need to observe that there is enough spring tension that the lower finger does not move at all when you raise the string. That is the other vital function of the spring. Without the spring, the lower would come along with the raise.
I have also seen where a changer was dirty with sludge at the pivots and the only way to keep the raise from moving with the lower was to increase the spring tension.
.....(a more correct statement would have been "the only way to keep the raise from moving with the lower was to throw the changer in a dip tank" but that is not always an option.)
Also note that too much tension at the return spring has its own issues beyond feel.
I completely disagree with John Fabian's choice to not have adjustable springs so that the customer couldn't screw it up. But the thinking is not totally out in left field.
Summary-- if you have an over-tightened spring and you can back it off and gain some ease of pedal feel, great. But watch out. That high tension setting may be for a reason.
"Just Right" involves more than "lower returns ok" and "feels good". |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 29 Mar 2024 6:43 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| Bob Snelgrove wrote: |
Jon
Did you address initial setup regarding the return springs on the end of the changer. Since digging into my Franklin lately, I see (feel) that some changer fingers have lot more tension on them to return to the open position. This is manually moving the finger, not using a pedal. I would think just enough tension to bring the string back solidly and maybe a skosh for good measure, but too much initial tension could cause unwanted pedal stiffness?
bob |
Bob -- I agree with that line "just enough tension to bring the string back solidly and maybe a skosh for good measure"
-but-
You need to observe that there is enough spring tension that the lower finger does not move at all when you raise the string. That is the other vital function of the spring. Without the spring, the lower would come along with the raise.
I have also seen where a changer was dirty with sludge at the pivots and the only way to keep the raise from moving with the lower was to increase the spring tension.
.....(a more correct statement would have been "the only way to keep the raise from moving with the lower was to throw the changer in a dip tank" but that is not always an option.)
Also note that too much tension at the return spring has its own issues beyond feel.
I completely disagree with John Fabian's choice to not have adjustable springs so that the customer couldn't screw it up. But the thinking is not totally out in left field.
Summary-- if you have an over-tightened spring and you can back it off and gain some ease of pedal feel, great. But watch out. That high tension setting may be for a reason.
"Just Right" involves more than "lower returns ok" and "feels good". |
Good stuff, Jon!
If a string is raise only, does it matter if the lower finger moves?
Would adjusting the spring to the point that the lower does not move be the most and only accurate way to dial in the return spring to the most effective point?
thx
bob |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 29 Mar 2024 7:00 am
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| Bob Snelgrove wrote: |
If a string is raise only, does it matter if the lower finger moves?
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Absolutely yes, it matters. You want zero lower finger movement with a raise because if it moves, there is no element controlling the amount of movement to assure that it will move the same amount every time. 100% repeatability is everything.
| Bob Snelgrove wrote: |
Would adjusting the spring to the point that the lower does not move be the most and only accurate way to dial in the return spring to the most effective point?
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If that's what it takes to keep the lower finger from moving with the raise, you have a problem with the changer -- dirt/sludge or a worn out rivet. But short of pulling the changer, if you can immobilize the lower finger with extreme spring tension -- or, what I have done in an emergency where the spring was not adjustable and deep-cleaning or repairing the changer was not an option (and major changer repair is, at this point, above my pay grade) is that I've tied down the lower finger with fine wire. Ugly but effective.
A repaired guitar? Not in a million years. But a temporarily solved problem, yep. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 29 Mar 2024 7:45 am
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| Bob Snelgrove wrote: |
ove"]
Would adjusting the spring to the point that the lower does not move be the most and only accurate way to dial in the return spring to the most effective point?
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If that's what it takes to keep the lower finger from moving with the raise, you have a problem with the changer -- dirt/sludge or a worn out rivet. But short of pulling the changer, if you can immobilize the lower finger with extreme spring tension -- or, what I have done in an emergency where the spring was not adjustable and deep-cleaning or repairing the changer was not an option (and major changer repair is, at this point, above my pay grade) is that I've tied down the lower finger with fine wire. Ugly but effective.
A repaired guitar? Not in a million years. But a temporarily solved problem, yep.[/quote]
I meant what it takes to dial in the return spring to the proper but not over tightened place. As if you were setting up a new or rebuilt charger from scratch, an ideal starting point with no other issues. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 29 Mar 2024 8:03 am
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Ah -- my head was stuck in a scenario of a string that does not need to lower such as a 'typical' 3rd string on E9 and I was reading "adjusting the spring to the point that the lower does not move" as locking down the lower, freezing it.
I will say yes, "adjusting the spring to the point that the lower does not move" when you raise the string.
Just tight enough for that and for full return from a lower (activate a lowering lever and release...it...slowly....and make sure the finger comes back reliably). You want that much spring tension, a hair more for good luck, and no more.
Let me say -- although I have confidence in these words, this-all is getting outside of where I've got any business spouting off. I have never built or rebuilt a steel
I need to leave such info and advice in the hands of people who are way stronger on this than I am. |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 29 Mar 2024 9:01 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
Ah -- my head was stuck in a scenario of a string that does not need to lower such as a 'typical' 3rd string on E9 and I was reading "adjusting the spring to the point that the lower does not move" as locking down the lower, freezing it.
I will say yes, "adjusting the spring to the point that the lower does not move" when you raise the string.
Just tight enough for that and for full return from a lower (activate a lowering lever and release...it...slowly....and make sure the finger comes back reliably). You want that much spring tension, a hair more for good luck, and no more.
Let me say -- although I have confidence in these words, this-all is getting outside of where I've got any business spouting off. I have never built or rebuilt a steel
I need to leave such info and advice in the hands of people who are way stronger on this than I am. |
Perfect answer! ( not the spouting off part You are too humble
thx
bob
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRwye98siA4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZlAdlrRYj0
http://www.reverbnation.com/bobsnelgrove
1978 Crawford Emmons P/P
1976 Tommy White P/P
1986 Franklin D-10 |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2024 5:36 pm
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I'm reviving this thread because it needs to be restated.
Had I known about, and read this post before trying to tune my knee from G# to F#, it would have saved me a bunch of grief.
Thanks.
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 7 Nov 2024 3:54 am
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| Don Downes wrote: |
I'm reviving this thread because it needs to be restated.
Had I known about, and read this post before trying to tune my knee from G# to F#, it would have saved me a bunch of grief.
Thanks. |
You were in good hands re: getting help & suggestions so I didn't want to be one of the 'too many cooks' in the kitchen and I didn't want to just add a gratuitous link to my post here because I was uncertain if the issue was about leverage & length of throw or just a matter of adjusting the lever's angle.
I've got photos of the undersides of a DR Vintage I worked on but none of them was especially relevant to your efforts. |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2024 11:24 am
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| Quote: |
| You were in good hands re: getting help & suggestions |
Indeed, Jon, Yes indeed. And you are too humble. (Must be that upstate water  )
I learned a lot from your post and the replies. Seeing b0b's face and "voice" was also heartwarming.
I look forward to going back and reading some of your older posts. While you said that this information may not solve my immediate problem, I have learned enough from you and BJ and all the other gentlemen so that I feel like I have a fairly good understanding of the mechanics of "leverage" to solve my immediate problem.
I appreciate your reply, and thank you!
_________________
"The secret to a long life is to keep breathing." |
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