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Topic: Emmons PP help, E -> F# raise won't allow E to fully lower |
James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 2 Feb 2024 7:44 am |
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My push pull was set up and stable for years until I started messing with it. I could never quite get the E to lower to Eb on the LKL. It was close enough that I didn't notice when playing but I could see it on the tuner and could hear it a bit when tuning by ear.
The problem was that the finger stopped before fully lowering with the finger casing (or whatever the lowering finger is called). It was being pulled off the raise screw revealing that the rod didn't have enough slack to allow the full lower. It's about 30 cents sharp, which is significantly worse than it was before.
I've read several posts on the forum from people that had the same problem, but either there wasn't enough details or the resolution was never explained.
NOTES:
1) The rod is attached to the hole closest to the axle so the travel distance of the raise is the shortest possible.
2) Upon raising to F#, the finger was floating in the middle and wasn't even close to making contact with the body. I now have it adjusted so it's making contact with the body at the same time as the B->C# raise on the same pedal. Was that the wrong thing to do? I'm having trouble understanding how returning it to where it was before, not contacting the body, would help this situation.
3) I've tried resetting the collar for the C pedal raise several times. If I prioritize the lower, the raise is nowhere near f#.
4) This probably doesn't matter, but I use one of the Peterson tempered tunings, 0E9. This has E at 0.0 and the F# at -3.9
Right now, I've got it tuned to F# with the B and C pedals engaged as I've read that is the starting point. What now?
Any tips are appreciated.
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Modified Emmons GS-10 3X4 and too many iPad apps to list. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 2 Feb 2024 8:32 am
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Do a search here for that condition. That combination takes a certain sequence of adjustment. It takes a lot of slack in the system and the lower travel has to be set first.
I had this issue with an Emmons I owned back in the day and I only found out after it was gone the procedure. I used to have it written down, but I can't find it now. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 2 Feb 2024 8:41 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
Do a search here for that condition. That combination takes a certain sequence of adjustment. It takes a lot of slack in the system and the lower travel has to be set first.
I had this issue with an Emmons I owned back in the day and I only found out after it was gone the procedure. I used to have it written down, but I can't find it now. |
I have read several threads and they all stated that the raise should be set first. Maybe an expert can clarify.
_________________
Modified Emmons GS-10 3X4 and too many iPad apps to list. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 2 Feb 2024 8:55 am
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| Well you may be right. It's been a long time. I just remember it involves a certain procedure. Hopefully the experts will look in. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 2 Feb 2024 9:36 am
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Tuning order and proper initial tuning setup are two different things on a PP. It's almost certainly just an issue of insufficient slack on the raise rod collar(s). The basic concept is that the collars on the raise rods must allow enough slack such that the lowest note can be reached without the raise rod collars hitting the bell crank swivels and stopping or hindering that motion. This sometimes gets out of whack when folks try to tighten/shorten the pull on the raise without considering the consequences. The open note tuning screw is in the lowering finger, when you engage the lower you're just moving that stop screw until the lowering finger hits its stop in the endplate, string tension is simply pulling the raise finger back with it. If the raise rod collar isn't allowing it enough slack, at some point the rod hook on the raise finger pulls tight and the raise finger stops following the lowering finger. If so, you just need more slack on the raise to allow that full range of motion from highest to lowest note, it's as simple as that.
Your item 2 is correct, the longest raise should contact the body in the changer cutout.
Your item 3, when you reset collar(s) you may need to compensate by adjusting pedal or lever stops to add more travel, adjust pedal height, etc. If the C pedal won't reach F# after you've moved the collar, the pedal just needs more travel (assuming the full range of motion between D# and F# is set properly in the changer).
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon
Last edited by Ian Worley on 2 Feb 2024 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 2 Feb 2024 10:06 am
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
Tuning order and proper initial tuning setup are two different things on a PP. It's almost certainly just an issue of insufficient slack on the raise rod collar(s). The basic concept is that the collars on the raise rods must allow enough slack such that the lowest note can be reached without the raise rod collars hitting the bell crank swivels and stopping or hindering that motion. This sometimes gets out of whack when folks try to tighten/shorten the pull on the raise without considering the consequences. The open note tuning screw is in the lowering finger, when you engage the lower you're just moving that stop screw until the lowering finger hits its stop in the endplate, string tension is simply pulling the raise finger back with it. If the raise rod collar isn't allowing it enough slack, at some point the rod hook on the raise finger pulls tight and the raise finger stops following the lowering finger. If so, you just need more slack on the raise to allow that full range of motion from highest to lowest note, it's as simple as that.
Your item 2 is correct, the longest raise should contact the body in the changer cutout.
Your item 3, when you reset collar(s) you may need to compensate by adjusting pedal or lever stops to add more travel, adjust pedal height, etc. If the C pedal won't reach F# after you've moved the collar, the pedal just needs more travel (assuming the full range of motion between D# and F# is set properly in the changer). |
Yep, you described my problem exactly. The only thing I haven't tried is adjusting the stop at the pedal. It seems like I did everything else correctly and found I could no longer raise the E to F#. it wasn't even close so I'm hoping when I get back under the hood that there's enough adjustment room on the pedal stop to get it there.
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Modified Emmons GS-10 3X4 and too many iPad apps to list. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 2 Feb 2024 2:50 pm
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This is gold! I read it several times and got it all sorted. It was a matter of increasing the pedal travel and then I had to time everything back up on the B and E strings.
Thanks
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Modified Emmons GS-10 3X4 and too many iPad apps to list. |
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