Marlen Pull Release E Lever Tuning Problem

Nate Hahn · From: Illinois, USA

Hey all,

My guitar is a 75 Marlen S10 E9 3x3 that uses a pull-release system. I’ve been having a consistent problem where my E lever lowers on strings 4 and 8 return flat. When I engage the F lever on strings 4 and 8 or the C pedal on string 4, it returns back to E in tune, so I can use this as a corrective. Needless to say, I’d like to be able to use my E lever without throwing the tuning out of whack.

I’ve seen some great posts on the forum explaining how the pull-release system works, and that has been helpful, but I’m still not confident I can diagnose exactly where the problem is occurring.

It certainly feels like there is some extra friction in the movement of the E lever, so it’s possible there’s some binding going on with the rods on other mechanical parts. As I’ve read in some other posts, it’s possible that replacing the pull rods with rods of a smaller diameter could fix this issue.

In the first picture, you can see the position of the changer fingers after the E lever is released. In the second picture, you can see the position of the changer fingers after the F lever is released. To my eye the 4th string changer is noticeably to the left in picture 1 from where it is in picture two. Not sure how helpful this is, and I’m happy to take other pictures that might be more illustrative.

If anyone has suggestions to what is going on or what could be done to fix this, please let me know. This guitar sounds amazing but it’s frustrating not to have access to the full potential of the different changes.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

It's likely something to do with the return spring. Assuming the setup hasn't been modified significantly, the uppermost rod closest to the underside of the top deck is the lower return, there is a return spring connected to it on the opposite (keyhead) end of the guitar. It's that spring's job to overcome the tension of the string and pull it back up to pitch when you release the lever. It likely just needs to be tightened or shortened a little to increase that force. There should be a collar on the other end of that rod that will hit a firm stop when the finger returns to the correct neutral position, make sure that is happening consistently
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Nate Hahn · From: Illinois, USA

Thanks Ian. You’re correct that the uppermost rod controls the lower on strings 4 and 8.

Just to make sure I’m understanding you correctly, you are referring to the springs seen in the top of the below photo, and the collar in the bottom of the photo? Or is it a collar on the other side of the rod?

I’m also curious whether you mean I should replace the spring with one that is shorter? Not sure whether there’s a way to tighten the screw that is already there. Apologies for my mechanical illiteracy, and many thanks for your response.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

What lever are your E lowers on? It looks like you might be Day setup, so LKL? It would help to have some more zoomed-out pics of the undercarriage, the close ups don't provide enough info on how the guitar is set up. I've seen these set up different ways, if there's no obvious stop along that rod then the neutral stop is probably the stop on the lever itself. You can troubleshoot the issue in a general sense by engaging and releasing the lower; assuming it has returned flat, just give a little tug on that string 4 rod with the spring and see if it returns to pitch. If so you should be able to observe where in the pull train it's hanging up or not returning fully. It likely just needs a little more return spring tension to resolve the issue, but it could be something misaligned or hanging up on another part.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Nate,

I would check to make sure there is enough slack in your raise collars on those strings, 4 and 8

Like a push/pull, the lowers need that slack to lower all the way. If everything is set with real tight tolerances, that could cause the issue you are describing.

Nate Hahn · From: Illinois, USA

Ian, you're correct, it's a Day setup and the E lower is on LKL. I've included a couple zoomed out photos below in case it is helpful.

Ian/Mike, thank you both for your suggestions of things to check in my troubleshooting.

Jason Putnam · From: Tennessee, USA

If the guitar was functioning correctly and then began to have this issue, you were likely correct in your initial post. Something is binding.
_________________
1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I just lost (fried) a computer with lots of workshop files, notes and photos. I hope to recover some of this in the next few weeks....maybe...

I've done extensive work on two pull-release Marlens but not enough to remember much without having my hands on one.
My first impression of the photo of the return springs (yellow) is that they need more tension. They are almost at rest here and I think there should be some stretch on them.

My approach would be to physically (with pliers or small vice grips) pull the rod to stretch the spring, at the same time as you release the collar (green), slide it to take up the slack and lock it back up.

What I cannot remember for the life of me, without my photos, is what's happening on the other end of this rod, at the end plate, whther there is a collar that needs to be moved to correspond to this move or if it is a nylon nut.
I would much rather be mucking around in there myself than trying to describe what needs doing without having the visual clues.

There is also a sheet that I posted a few months ago giving a specific tutorial on the proper sequence for tuning the pull-release Marlen. I'll se if I can find it (on the forum, since I've lost it to my computer woes).

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

This is the sheet. It was edited and formatted from various sources including Bobby Lee's tutorial. The title should more precisely read "Tuning the pull-release Marlen 10 string E9"

Nate Hahn · From: Illinois, USA

Jon, thanks for the detailed recommendation. FYI, there’s a nylon tuning nut on the other end of the rod. I think earlier models used a collar but then they switched to the nylon by the time they made mine.

That chart you made is a good upgrade to the instructions from b0b’s site. It makes me wish I had that LKR, but mine’s only a 3x3. The only thing missing from both of these charts is the instruction for how to tune the C pedal raise on string 5, which involves adjusting a collar under the guitar.

Sorry about your computer woes. Hope you can recover your files.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Two things, Nate -- I'm just remembering that I made this instruction sheet specifically for a client and his guitar. I am normally quite emphatic about nomenclature and how "LKL" means absolutely nothing and could be anything. But it was the easiest way to instruct the guitar's owner who really would rather not know any of this (he'll likely bring me the guitar when it needs tweaking). So I'm just covering my embarrassment -- I need to rework that sheet to be more universal and open to Day setup, for instance.

re: tuning the C pedal, what I probably did is tune it the same way I tune a push pull -- get the C pedal 5th string in tune, having this be the ultimate, master stop, and then tweaking the A pedal 5th string with the A pedal stop (because a common sweetening of the tuning would have the A pedal C# a bit flatter than the C pedal C#.
But I'd need the guitar here to refresh my brain and confirm if this thinking actually applies to the Marlen.

There is so much interaction between all the adjustments on this guitar. Both of the Marlens that I had on my bench were really wonderful sounding steels. But they had me pulling the few hairs I have left as I learned how to adjust them.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Nate, the stop for the neutral E note is the adjustable return stop screw on the lever, see the pic below. It should return firmly against the aluminum rail when you release the lever, that's what the spring on the pull rod is meant to do. If it's not doing that, then adding some tension to the spring should should solve your issue. As Jon suggested, a simple way to add some tension to the rod is by simply tightening the nylon nut in the end plate window to effectively shorten the rod and stretch the spring. You can do that by just tightening the nut a few turns first, then repositioning the collar on the rod at the bell crank to compensate and get the open E note close. Make sure the lever stop screw is now returning firmly against the rail, then fine tune the open E with the nylon. Another option to tighten the spring is to clip a couple of winds off the end and just bend up a new end loop with some needle nose pliers. You want the spring tension to be just slightly stronger then the string's tension pulling the other way. Don't overdo it or the lowering lever will start to get stiff.

Let us know what suggestions you've tried, and whether anything has helped. BTW, you have an extra cross shaft already there for a LKR, you just need the lever, some rods and a couple of bell cranks. Good luck!

_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Nate Hahn · From: Illinois, USA

I tried to adjust the collars at the bell cranks but I could not get them to budge. I tried using Allen wrench to loosen the screw but even when the screws came all the way out I couldn’t find a way to adjust the collars.

The first image above is the collars for the lower rods at rest. In the second picture, I’ve pulled the rod to stretch the spring as suggested by Jon, getting some daylight between the collar and the bell crank. It seems to be a little different than the other collars, and rather than being able to slide or rotate, it stays put. Perhaps that’s rust or some other product of age, I don’t know.

I did not try cutting the spring like you suggested Ian. That is something I could try. I am beginning to think I might be better off paying someone with experience with these guitars to set it up for me. I feel like I’m pretty far over my skis trying to fix this thing. There are some other weird things going on under the hood, so idk, I might do well to have someone else with more experience get their hands on it.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

If the collar won't move, then shortening the spring(s) a little or just replacing them is going to be the easiest fix. Those collars have that extra tang that projects into the slot in the bell crank, that's what keeps the rod from spinning when you adjust the nylon nut at the end plate. Did you check whether the stop screw is returning fully when you release the lever?
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon

Nate Hahn · From: Illinois, USA

It does appear that the screw is returning fully when I release the E lever. It's possible there's a little daylight in there, but it looks like it's making contact.

I was told that if I got the collar out from the bell crank like in the second picture I should be able to adjust it, but it doesn't budge even with the screw taken fully out.

I think you're right and the springs either need replaced/shortened, or I need to find another means of using those collars to adjust the spring tension. I'd love to get this beautiful guitar into a place where its tuning is stable.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: