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Topic: Day vs Emmons for those with ankle problems. |
Bill McCloskey
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 12:57 pm |
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I post on the forum got me thinking and I'd like to explore it. I have very bad feet and ankles. I current have the Emmons setup but I read that the Day set up might be better for those of use who have bad ankles and that it is easier to rock from left to right than it is to rock from right to left.
Thoughts before I have John Widgren change my copedence? |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 2:43 pm
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| I've also been told that the Day setup gives more cabinet drop. Which is also a consideration. |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 3:34 pm
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| Bill if you are currently playing an Emmons setup,(A,B,C) ,if you find it more comfortable with B pedal down and rocking on the C pedal- than rocking on the A pedal with B down- then you probaly would prefer a Day set up.That is if like most people you are using AB more than BC.... |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 3:37 pm
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avoid string 4 and play some A+B pedal moves with B+C instead (or disengage the C pedal raise on 4) and it should give you a pretty good idea
for me, it's always made more sense to have the ball of the foot anchored on pedal B which is what the Emmons setup does
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 5:06 pm
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Bill, I've sprained my left ankle a number of times. I also rolled over completely (forward) on my left foot about 6 years ago, and also had a huge oily cyst removed from the top of my left foot 9 years ago - that was bad enough that the surgeon cut into a few nerves. I've worked on it for the last several years, and it's better. But I think I qualify for having issues with my left ankle and foot.
I am very uncomfortable with Day setup. Doing that pivot off the A and B pedals as much as I tend to is problematic. I've tried pretty hard a couple of times - I converted a guitar over - but I have had to conclude it's much harder for me.
I agree with comments about trying the roll on the B+C pedals, pivoting off the B and C pedals. I suggest working on that pretty hard for a while - it's good practice anyway - B and C pedal moves can be very useful and I didn't practice that enough, so it was a useful exercise on its own. And I can do it, but it's much more awkward and sometimes painful, and I would never want to have that as my A and B pedals. And I agree with Scott about pivoting of the ball of the foot. YMMV - plenty of players feel completely different about this. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 8:48 am
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| Make sure your A and C pedals are pretty darn close to being the same height before you start the B-C pivoting experiment. One of the hardest physical things for me to do (Emmons setup) is still rocking off of B while holding down C, and I can’t really blame it on bad ankles. Good luck. |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 10:17 am
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| With my left side partially paralyzed due to cerebral palsy, I use the Emmons pedal setup. |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 2:03 pm
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| I believe it varies from person to person. I started with Day and switched to Emmons for a couple of reasons. My left ankle now seems to rock from left to right easier than from right to left, which makes Emmons easier on the AB pedals. That to me is a significant factor. As far as cabinet drop, meh. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 5:00 pm
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Detune the nylon tuner on the 4th string on the C pedal so it doesn't raise the string. You can then try the Day setup using the 2nd & 3rd pedals and don't have to avoid the 4th string.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 5:43 pm
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Someone else suggested this but I don't know what detuning the C pedal does. Doesn't give me an A pedal. I can just press the pedals from B to C without playing at all. I did try just rolling from the B to C, without playing anything. It seemed slightly easier, but I'm not sure it was enough to go through the hassle of changing copedents.
Thanks for the suggestion though. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 7:11 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| Someone else suggested this but I don't know what detuning the C pedal does. Doesn't give me an A pedal. |
Bill - Just press the C pedal, and you'll see two nylon tuners controlling the raises on both string 4 and string 5. The nylon on string 4 controls the E to F# raise, and the one on string 5 controls the B to C# raise. Just slack off just the string 4 nylon so it doesn't raise anymore. Now your C pedal does exactly the same thing as your A pedal, and now your C and B pedals do exactly the same thing as the A and B pedals in Day setup.
I tend to keep my C pedal a bit higher than my A pedal. So, as Fred suggests - it's probably a good idea to make sure the C pedal isn't too high. But try experimenting with the relative heights of the B and C pedal to see what works best. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 8:15 pm
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| Wow nice help from forum members!! |
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 16 Jan 2024 8:16 pm
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| Ah...okay, that makes sense now. Thanks Dave |
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Paul Mozen
From:
Fl, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2024 10:52 am
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| It depends on which part of your ankle is bad. Try rocking to the left and rocking to the right. Which hurts more? I played emmons for many years then tried Day. They were both about the same on my ankles. I went back to Emmons cuz thats what I was more used to. |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 7:49 am
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| By using the day set by backing off the 4 string tuner doesn’t that complicate the standard Emmons knee levers ? If you rock off by rolling the foot to the left then your knee needs to go right to lower the E string to get a 5 chord. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 9:21 am
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| Willis Vanderberg wrote: |
| By using the day set by backing off the 4 string tuner doesn’t that complicate the standard Emmons knee levers ? If you rock off by rolling the foot to the left then your knee needs to go right to lower the E string to get a 5 chord. |
It’s just an experiment for the left foot without having to move the rodding, and not meant to be an overall permanent setup solution.
But just to address your point- I have read about rules for playing pedal steel, such as “the left heel should never leave the floor”, like it may need to do when rocking off C and holding B down with your left foot while going LKR. I’m in the camp that says do whatever you need to do to get the sound you want. If you get good at doing something wrong then it’s not really wrong anymore, is it? |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 10:33 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| If you get good at doing something wrong then it’s not really wrong anymore, is it? |
Fred! I love it! When will you be producing t-shirts?
~Lee |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 11:04 am
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| Willis Vanderberg wrote: |
| By using the day set by backing off the 4 string tuner doesn’t that complicate the standard Emmons knee levers ? If you rock off by rolling the foot to the left then your knee needs to go right to lower the E string to get a 5 chord. |
The idea of backing off the C pedal string 4 raise is to be able to compare ankle rolls using AB vs BA without re-setting the whole left-side setup. Of course, it changes the relation to the left knee levers.
I think some people can decide Emmons vs. Day just on the ankle roll issue. Quite a few years ago, just to make sure I was giving Day a fair trial, I went ahead and set a guitar up Day. But in hindsight, I don't think that was necessary for me - the difference in ankle ergonomics was a dealbreaker for me.
As far as the relation of ABC vs BCA on the E=>F knee lever placement - clearly, most players put E=>F on the side of the A pedal. But not everybody. For example, check out Lloyd Green's setup - https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/lloyd-greens-copedent/ - Emmons ABC with E=>F on RKL, which is the side of the C Lever. Just for the hell of it, I tried that way back when. I'd have liked to twist my knee off trying to do the A+F move while doing the ankle roll. But then again, there are no hard and fast rules for setting up a pedal steel. If it works for you, it works for you. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2024 9:14 pm
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Another thing to consider on playing Emmons or Day set up, If you have left foot or ankle problems. Where are your E9th pedals located under the guitar.
If you play E9th neck, On an S10, Or a DS10. Moving the Whole pedal system to the right may be more comfortable.
The first pedal steel guitar with knee levers I bought, Was a MSA S10. It had the 1st pedal left set in 3rd pedal slot. As shown in picture below.
If you are playing a D10 or 12U you are limited to having E9th pedals to the extreme left.
Moving the pedals right, About like sitting at dinner table. May be something to consider for more dexterity and comfort if you are having problems with left Foot or ankle.
When I went from E9th to S12U with 7 pedals, I noticed a little problem moving my left foot farther to left. But I got used to it and does not bother me now. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2024 8:10 am
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Bill I think it really depends on the ankle ... You can do a little pre-test though and see if you're the same as me. ... While sitting at your guitar, the further left you put your left foot the easier it is to raise the outside of it. Now put your left foot in the middle to middle right of your guitar and see if its just as easy to raise the outside of your left foot?
I played with the typical 3x5 ABC Emmons setup for a hundred years. But then in the last few years put 2 pedals to the left of ABC moving ABC closer to the center of the guitar and that opened my eyes a bit. It can certainly be done and moving my foot closer to the center of the guitar made raising the inside of my left foot easier. I did have to fool around with pedal height to help accommodate the move, but can be done, even though I'm still playing Emmon's.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
https://www.youtube.com/@steelinatune
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2024 8:08 pm
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Have you tried excessive and stretching? Maybe a few sessions of physio may help as well.
I would t give up on it.
Although,I have often thought about switching over to Day just for the sake of trying out Tommy's E9 copedant
I never committed to it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 21 Jan 2024 7:42 am
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It's a well-known fact that Tommy White saw my E9 setup and copied it exactly......
And then I woke up. 
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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