Newman Tuning and Flat Chords

Nathan Stevens · From: Arcata, CA

Hi folks,

I am new to pedal steel (just a few months in), but have been playing guitar for 20 years. I was tuning my Mullen Discovery equal tempered to A 440, but got a Peterson tuner and have recently been using the Newman tuning (via Jack Stoner's JE9 and JKL, thanks Jack!). It generally sounds better to my ear than the equal tempered tuning, but I am experiencing an issue with major chords sounding flat with A pedal down and E's raised. For example, if I play a G on the 3rd fret, strings 8-6-5 (no pedals), then slide up to the next inversion on the same group of strings at the 6th fret with A pedal down and E's raised, the whole thing sounds pretty bad / flat. I have to adjust my bar maybe not quite a third of the way between frets 6 and 7 to get it to sound somewhat better, but it's still not great.

I have tried adjusting the tuning by ear to fix this, but I am causing more harm than good.

I have searched the forum to see if this has been discussed before but didn't turn anything up. I apologize if this has been discussed previously. I'd also note that I am experiencing a similar issue with the MA9 Jody Cameron / Mickey Adams tuning.

Is it common to have to adjust the bar to account for intonation issues like this, or should this be fixed with the tuning? Has anyone else experienced this and have any tips?

Thanks in advance!

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

If you're tuning using just intonation, which is pretty close to what Jeff Newman's tuning is, then the E=>F change (F-lever) is quite flat relative to equal temperament approach. Thus, if you hit your A+F combination, go up 3 frets and go right to the fret, you'll be flat. You need to move the bar a bit sharp to be in-tune. One could compute how much you need to sharpen it, but it would not be all that useful. It is necessary to be able to hear when it's in-tune. Just listen carefully and practice a lot, and it should come with no problem.

BTW, there are lots of forum threads on this. Search for just intonation, equal temperament, straight up tuning, tuning wars, tuning armageddon, or similar search terms. These threads were rampant around the 2003-2007 era.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

What Dave said... it's helpful to momentarily close you're eyes when you arrive in the neighborhood of the target fret and let your ears guide you to the correct spot. You WILL end up a bit to the right of the fret marker. It will look really wrong -- but it will sound correct.

Also, be sure that the edge of your foot isn't slightly touching the B pedal on that particular move or it will ruin the whole deal, regardless of bar placement.

When using any tuning system other than ET, the fret markers become a suggestion of the rough location of where to put the bar rather than the precise spot. Your ears should automatically force your bar hand to make the necessary micro-adjustment once you arrive in the new location and hear what you're putting out. You're already subconsciously doing this, playing slightly off of the marker in most chord positions... but there seems to be a breakdown of some kind with the A+F move since that one is naturally tuned the furthest from ET, forcing you to nudge the bar radically to the right of the marker. We probably all struggled with that one in the early days of learning to play, so hang in there.

Nathan Stevens · From: Arcata, CA

Thanks guys for the detailed responses and suggestions, very helpful.

And I should have clarified, I have certainly found and dug through many threads on just intonation vs equal temperament, etc. on the forum, but couldn't find anything on this specific topic.

I was having to play without my bar directly over the fret line with the A+F combo, so just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong. Based on your responses, it sounds like this is a common thing, and I just need to practice letting my ears guide my bar to drill in the calibration and muscle memory.

Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

Buddy said, the reason he started tuning everything to A 440 is because he was playing along with the radio and it sounded better.
I think of tuning things, especially the 3rds, or G#s, and F lever, flat, as tuning the guitar to itself, and the beat notes are minimal and everything sounds in tune.
I think of everything tuned straight up as a comprise that sounds better with a band.
Now, for me, it's everything to A440 with a couple of minor tweaks.

_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8:

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Thanks. I tuned everything to "0" when I first got a tuner and everyone told me I was out of tune. I got Jeff Newman's tuning chart and started using that and no one ever told me I was out of tune.

I was once told by a pedal steel guitar builder that "everything is a compromise" on a pedal steel guitar.

On Bruce Boutin's introductory video he mentions the A and F combo when discussing tuning as never get it exact.

Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

I wonder how Lloyd thinks about the E>F lever tuning and his whole approach to tuning?
Buddy usually got his E's @ A440 and chimed in the rest of his tuning.
Probably a holdover from the pre-tuner days.
I believe Jerry Byrd got a note or two from the band and tuned from there, by ear.
_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8:

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Chris, I read somewhere that when Lloyd first started with F lever (shortly before he recorded that intro to D-I-V-O-R-C-E with it), he tuned the A+F chord as perfectly as he possibly could by ear, and then had to experiment with how much to slant and how far above the fret the center of the bar needed to be.
https://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000005/HTML/20041212-5-003475.html

You all know that the F lever was Lloyd Green’s idea, based on a more complicated way of accomplishing the same thing that was initially created by Shot Jackson and Pete Drake. But here’s a link anyway, with a statement from Lloyd in the OP.
https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007456.html

Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

Great info, Fred.
_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8:

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

When tuning in “Just Intonation” (JI), aka. “Sweet” or “to Jeff’s Chart”, minor third intervals are tune slightly sharp and major third intervals noticeably flat, in order to “allign” the overtones generated by either stings with each other and thus eliminating “grinding beating”.

Now, if you look at the A-Pedal as generating a C# being the Major 3rd of the A6th chord generated in combination with the B-Pedal also held down, that C#, in order to sound “in tune” with the root note A will need to be tuned about 11cents flat compared to it's calculated “Equal Temperament” (ET) C# suggested by a tuner.
So far, FINE. It sounds "sweet" and "pleasantly in tune"

BUT, when now you attempt to construct a C# Major (at the nut) chord using that A-pedaled and 11cents flat C# as the Root, and the E-to-F-Lever to form the Major 3rd, not only will you have to compensate by raising the bar about a 10th of a fret’s space to bring that chord up to the rest of the world, but your E-to-F-change will have to be tuned about 11cents flat to your already 11cents flat A-pedaled C#…, the sum being about 22cents flat to what everything else, a now very obvious and visible 5th of a fret's space!

Evidently, as just suggested, you can “bring that chord up” with the bar, unless you use it or just that "F" note “open” in combination which a barred chord.
BUT… That E-to-F-change will prove irreconcilably out of tune to create a 7th chord alone or even worse an Augmented in combination with A&B-pedals down, because it's a combined 22cents below it's environment.

Which brings us to our next issue: Diminished and even worse Augmented chords on Pedal Steels atempting to use JI:

Diminished chords are a stack of four different notes at each a minor 3rd interval, the 5th note, at yet another minor 3rd interval will be the octave of the first, intervals, which in JI are tuned slightly sharp from another. ALL of them! So the octaves resuting of all Diminished stacks will carry the SUM of 4 "inflated" intervals and be hopelessly sharp out of tune!
Similarly, Agmented chords which are a stack of three Major 3rd intervals to it's ever repeating octaves of each of it's notes, which in JI, as we established above will be tuned quite noticeable flat to another, the Octaves will be 33cents flat… a third of a fret!

As long these intervals are set up in all strings at same distance from another, like in C6th ALL adjancent) playing either can be adjusted by slating the bar to bring the Octaves back in tune, but at the same time re-adjusting those intervals to ET.
So, even players using JI as their primary tuning method, will have to resort to ET for certain interval combinations.

Now this may all read as a rant against JI.
But it’s not!

Except for a pedaled C6th or "Jazz"-tuning, I still would favor JI on most traditional non-pedal steel tunings that are not having tri-tone intervals.
I also would tune an E9th JI any day, knowing how to navigate the culprits resulting from it… which IS how our heroes all got away with it.
And that brings us to Mr. Emmons and all the other greats.

BE stunned us all 25 years ago when he confirmed rumors here that at some point he went “straight” (ET).
I knew name-players who declaredly refused to believe it, even after BE confirmed it! But he also did relativate by stating that after he'd set it all up to the tuner (ET), he would bring SOME Major 3rds down to where he could “stand” them.
Evidently, as we just have discussed with Pedal A, A&B and adding E-to-F, each alteration in tuning and pulls brings about unintended conflicts in different combinations as the degree position of each given note and intervalic widths are ever changing on our mechanical instrument!

So, how die BE get away with playing a PSG mostly tuned ET and others who kept and keep tuning even C6th JI get away with it too?

ARTISTRY!: Knowing which chords will need to be placed off-fret, and by about how much, knowing how to slant over harmonies and even chords to find a pleasing even only “compromise”, where to use the different reaction to pressure of each string (intonation) to at least create the “impression” of being in tune with sometimes copious amounts of vibrato.

So, which ever way you tune, you will have conflicts and will have to learn to compromise, then the goal ist to SOUND in tune and pleasing with a rest of the world which notoriously never really is "in tune".

And with that I say “Good Luck” to you too! Ha!… JD.

(somewhat corrected for crappy spelling and audacious grammar)
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Despite its inherent problems, I still regard that pull as a major step forward in opening up the E9th tuning all those years ago.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

And letting up on the "A" pedal with the "F" lever gives a nice dominant 7 and another two frets up with the "B"pedal and the "E" lever (E>Eb).
_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8:

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Nathan, I'm fussy about tuning. I tune my E9 to itself with harmonics. That makes my major 3rds on strings 3 and slightly flat, which sweetens an open major triad. However those strings are 5ths in A and F chords. I solved the sourness problem by adding tuning compensators, ever so slightly raising those strings a smidgen to be in-tune 5th when playing an A+F major chord.

In reality, the only string that really needs it is string 6, string 3 sounds good enough without the raise compensator.

This mod made the A+F positions tolerable to my ear, I avoided them until then.

Just takes one extra pull rod and an extra bell crank to add this in.

Lastly, you can preview this improvement by hitting a zero fret A+F C# major, letting it ring, and pushing down on string 6 behind the roller nut until the strings sounds good. That tiny amount or pitch raising is what your raise compensator will give you.

I've found no othe conflicts when using other pedal/lever combinations.
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