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Topic: Chromatic diminished universal tuning |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2023 11:01 am |
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About 1 1/2 yrs ago I got the idea to build a steel guitar and the long decent into tuning madness started. I knew pretty early I didn't want to go the standard route so started reading everything I could find. I built a lap steel and fell in love with non-pedal playing and mostly go between A6-C6 and various tweeks (same strings work). My pedal steel idea started coming together about 6 months ago after looking at every photo of the undercarriage I could find.
I realized the undercarriage had to be designed around the tuning so I had to decide on a copedant. I knew I wanted to go with a single neck and after trying 10 string lap steel, I found I don't like playing more than 8 strings. I distilled everything I found down to two tunings. The first is basically the 8 string version of the B6/E9 tuning really Eadd9. I plan on setting up another guitar with this tuning. (low to high) E-G#-B-E-F#-G#-B-E. The pedals will create A6 with a V on top and the D# lever will create B6 with a iii on top. A third pedal or lever will lower the middle E to D to create a E13 type tuning. A perfect tuning for old time country and Western swing!
The tuning I set up now is (low to high) G-A#-C#-E-G-A#-C#-E a fully diminished 7 chord. 8 pedals total allow for a fully chromatic scale. 4 pedals lower each string pair a 1/2 step and 4 pedals raise. L side lowers and R side raises. This may sound awkward but mapping out the tuning, you can see there are enormous possibilities! I think of this as more of a universal sixth type tuning since 8 sixth type chords are available without putting the bar on the strings by simply depressing any 2 adjacent pedals both raised or both lowered (including A6, C6, G6 and E6). I have started making a list of general rules you can apply to try to tame this beast. This would be the 6th/min7 rule. You can use the patterns created by the diminished tuning by simply moving up 4 frets and shifting the pedal pattern down one. So to play the drop 2 or drop 3 inversions up the neck is actually very easy and I was able to do that by applying this rule (this took years on guitar and still struggle with these).
To further explain if you are still with me  the Dominant 7th rule would be to lower any string set and the lowered note becomes the root. All main chord groups are available in full 4 note voicings and easily inverted up the neck. In mapping this out I realized that the same rules apply to different chords, which is really opening up my general understanding of harmony. For chords with more than 4 notes starting with the 9th chords, you would drop the rt. which becomes the ninth etc. An 11th would be raising the 3, and #11 would be lowering the 5th or possibly aug? The augmented scale lays out beautifully in slants up and down the neck. 7b9 would be diminished. Here we are getting into advanced jazz and shell voicing, but you can see what I am saying.
It remains to be seen how functional this tuning is, but I was very excited to learn recently that the great Ernest Tavares used almost this exact tuning. Here is the guitar I built
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=3137276#3137276 |
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Daniel Baston
From:
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Feb 2023 1:23 pm
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Very interesting! I am curious to hear how this tuning works for you in practice. If you record anything with it, it would be cool to hear it as well.  |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2023 2:06 pm
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My first impression when you said "lower each pair" was that you lowered the strings next to each other- G & A#, C# & E, etc. But looking at your rodding, I see you are talking about each pair of notes: both G's, both A#'s, etc......interesting!
As was brought out, I too, would like to hear what it would sound like......Pat. |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2023 7:35 pm
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| I make a living with machines and such. 40 hours a week of hassle and headaches is enough for me. I play the steel guitar to escape from all that. I appreciate the invite but no thank you.☹️ |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2023 6:45 am
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| Pat Chong wrote: |
My first impression when you said "lower each pair" was that you lowered the strings next to each other- G & A#, C# & E, etc. But looking at your rodding, I see you are talking about each pair of notes: both G's, both A#'s, etc......interesting!
As was brought out, I too, would like to hear what it would sound like......Pat. |
You got it, the idea with this tuning is having all 4 voicing in both octaves. This way you can just change your grip in any way you want and you still have essentially the same chord. Cheating essentially. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2023 6:49 am
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| Rich Arnold wrote: |
| I make a living with machines and such. 40 hours a week of hassle and headaches is enough for me. I play the steel guitar to escape from all that. I appreciate the invite but no thank you.☹️ |
Rich, you don't need no stinking pedals. Hell, if I could play like you, pedals would be the furthest thing from my mind. |
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colin mcintosh
From:
Australia
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Posted 17 Feb 2023 1:10 pm
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This is similar to the parent chords for the guitar that Pat Martino mapped out. Lower one string of a Dim chord at a time and a different Dom chord is available. Raise one string at a time and a min7b5 is the chord.
He took it further by using an aug triad, lower each note and a maj chord. Raise each note, one at a time and you get Min chords.
I've always wondered if this could be translated to steel and it looks like you've found it. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2023 6:36 am
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| colin mcintosh wrote: |
This is similar to the parent chords for the guitar that Pat Martino mapped out. Lower one string of a Dim chord at a time and a different Dom chord is available. Raise one string at a time and a min7b5 is the chord.
He took it further by using an aug triad, lower each note and a maj chord. Raise each note, one at a time and you get Min chords.
I've always wondered if this could be translated to steel and it looks like you've found it. |
I stumbled on Pat's theory while reading about diminished chords after I "found" this tuning. It goes a whole lot deeper than that. This same theory can be applied to any 4 note chord. It can also be applied to scales or any pattern of notes etc. If you want to see, this tool lays it all out. https://www.studybass.com/tools/chord-scale-note-printer/ The diminished tuning automatically organizes notes in an almost fractal nature. Pretty cool... I have only been playing this for a few days and I am seeing that this is a very functional tuning. Obviously you are primarily playing in a pedals down mode. Pick blocking is essential. I feel that any player with a bit of skill in A6 or C6 will take to this tuning like a fish going from a fishbowl to the ocean. The nice thing is you can play in whatever 6th tuning you are comfortable with. Everything you learn on lap steel can be applied.
I discovered this tuning by accident, basically I wanted a chromatic scale and I figured I could put 8 pedals on a guitar. That means each string must only move a half step in either direction. When I put it all together I realized it was a diminished 7 chord. I am proposing this tuning be called expanded Tavares tuning in honor of Ernest Tavares since he originally discovered it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 26 Feb 2023 6:08 pm
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The C6th tuning is "nearly" a diminished tuning. If you look at the core 8 strings (strings 2 thru 9) you have as many Major 3rd intervals as minor 3rd intervals in between adjacent strings... 3 of each... and in the middle you have a 2nd. The average intervals between string. In average ALMOST in minor thirds. Having a balance of minor and Major thirds helps harmony playing a LOT, and tuning too.
When you look at the roots C, A, F (and "D" if you tune up the 10th string and thus too have the relative minor of F, just like A to C)... and spread that over an octave, you have a 4 positions spread over an octave which are ALMOST evenly distributed in 2 Majors and 2 minors:
From the 7th string rooted Major, 3 frets higher the 8th string rooted relative minor of the 7th string rooted Major, another 4 frets higher the 9th string rooted Major 7th and another 3 frets up the 10th string rooted (IF tuned up to D open) relative minor of the 9th string Major and yet another 2 frets up the octave of the 7th string rooted Major 6th... and on and on.
4 positions fairly evenly spread over 12 frets... ALMOST all in min. 3rd distances from each other. This is why it is so easy to "paint" a diminished scale/arpeggio with the bar by picking minor 3rd string pairs a fret apart.
You bring rightfully bring up the "Diminished => mother of 4 Dominant7th chords idea (by dropping one of the 4 notes. In other words, within 3 frets, one would be able to "paint" out ALL 12 Dominant chords.
Further altering these diminished pattern would generate ALL chord qualities in ALL 12 keys within 3 frets. And the again for a total of 4 3-fret blocks over the octave.
A concept preached by Barry Harrys who calls the Diminished "The Mother Of All Chords".
So yes, for a moment a diminished tuning would seem attractive, for being "symmetric" so that everything one can play one could replicate with the same bar movements EVERYWHERE across the strings and up and down the neck. Kind'a like a bass which contrary to the guitar, even in a 6 string version is tuned ALL in 4ths or 5ths respectively.
minor thirds are also less "out of tune" in ET (which would HAVE to be the tuning approach) as Major 3rds.
A pedals system could be thought of, that would be a systematic and "symmetric" as the tuning itself.
I must say, I have given the diminished tuning a lot of thought.
But I haven't yet tried it, because of one discussion among some very capable NeoSoul/Modern Gospel key players I witnessed recently.
One said: "I really like to play in Eb!" and the other one went: "yeah there's a lot you can do in Eb!". First I scratched my head... I have VERY limited playing abilities on the piano, but my youngest son studies piando and I have to sometimes guide him or answer questions. Additionally, I have all but completely stopped to learn steel guitar off steel guitar examples. I study a LOT of keyboard examples as well some sax, guitar etc I then adapt on the SG.
One would at first think "WHAT in the world can be hidden in Eb that is so worth being excited about?"... it's a piano and it's got 12 semi-tones neatly lined up in all 12 keys. BUT the arrangement of the white versus black keys and the TECHNICAL possibilities, limitations and challenges each of the 12 keys offer is different from one to the other.
Likewise the guitar and thus the SG too, will offer positions (we like to call them pockets) which rotated thru the keys, may offer ALL 12 semitones in usable constellations (pockets) several times over any given octave... but each positions (like the 4 I outlined in the C6th tuning) are arranged slightly different.
Example: The 7th string rooted Major really has 4 notes: Root, M3rd, 5th and the 6th. While the 9th string rooted Major has 5 notes: Root, M3rd, 5th, M7th and the 9th.
So just if you play the same line on the 7th string Major or 7 frets higher/5 frets lower, the out line and "bends" (slides) will be different. You may attack a degree on the fret or come down or up to it. It makes a difference in "feel" which can be accentuated willingly.
Things become even woolier if you take the 10th string minor (again, being tuned up to D open for these examples) finding Root, m3rd, 5th, b7th, 9th and 4th/11th. a 6 note chord. One may say "yeah, but that one like the 8th string rooted positions are MINOR!", but one has a bar that can be moved... I can "paint a Dominant7th" scale or arpeggio by just sliding up these minor3rds.
This may be a challenge to learn to master, but once it's learned it's in my OPINION a huge factor to being more creative and articulate like lines ever so slightly differently position to position.
So, I THINK I get what you are thinking, but I have, at least for right now, come to the conclusion that while a symmetric tuning may seem attractive, and certainly initially easier to learn, once one understands that C6th is very close to a diminished tuning but ever so slightly "distorted" from that, it offers more challenges and thus expressive possibilities.
But that's just my opinion for now.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Walter Webb
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2023 7:56 pm
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| If only William Leavitt were around to comment on this... You could make it a 12 string by adding two melody scale note on the top... Leavitt style |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 6:38 am
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Thanks for the interest! I am just a little past the embryonic phase with this tuning. I kept coming back to this idea over and over and I decided I had to try it. There are so many hurdles just to try out a tuning like this. The first and largest obviously is finding (in my case building) a guitar that can be set up this way. The guitar I have has some issues and I have another I am working on so I can continue to play while I get a better working model going. I will give some updates as I make progress.
I consider the most basic form of this tuning to be raising all strings a semitone, which could be done with only 4 pedals. Many of the chords available on the lower side are also available on the raise side. instead of lower any one string to get a Dom 7th chord, you would raise 3 strings to get a Dom 7th chord. I have thought about how this tuning could be expanded and I have some ideas. That said, I love the symmetry of this tuning. It simplifies things in so many ways. All my initial fears about a diminished tuning, which sounds like a very bad idea, went away immediately. Simply press down 2 pedals and you are playing in classic C6. The world of harmonic possibilities is at your feet. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 7:01 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
Thanks for the interest! I am just a little past the embryonic phase with this tuning. I kept coming back to this idea over and over and I decided I had to try it. There are so many hurdles just to try out a tuning like this. The first and largest obviously is finding (in my case building) a guitar that can be set up this way. The guitar I have has some issues and I have another I am working on so I can continue to play while I get a better working model going. I will give some updates as I make progress.
I consider the most basic form of this tuning to be raising all strings a semitone, which could be done with only 4 pedals. Many of the chords available on the lower side are also available on the raise side. instead of lower any one string to get a Dom 7th chord, you would raise 3 strings to get a Dom 7th chord. I have thought about how this tuning could be expanded and I have some ideas. That said, I love the symmetry of this tuning. It simplifies things in so many ways. All my initial fears about a diminished tuning, which sounds like a very bad idea, went away immediately. Simply press down 2 pedals and you are playing in classic C6. The world of harmonic possibilities is at your feet. |
The later seeming to be C6th with P5 & P6 inverted?
But IF so, then holding the 2 pedals down to have C6th, how would you access the core C6th pedals?
The tuning would have to be set up based on the whole/half "scale" which would give you m3rds, M3rds, and 4ths... but use up 9 strings to just complete one octave. BE-C6th stretches over 2 octaves with 10 strings.
I am NOT suggesting to scrap the idea. I share the interest in the core principle that diminished chords, when understood as "the mother" of all chords, is a captivating concept. And it's helped me a LOT to decode the C6th tuning for single note playing and found that it also explained the chord-Pedal positions.
I just don't know how to make a diminished tuning really usable.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 8:28 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
The later seeming to be C6th with P5 & P6 inverted?
But IF so, then holding the 2 pedals down to have C6th, how would you access the core C6th pedals?
The tuning would have to be set up based on the whole/half "scale" which would give you m3rds, M3rds, and 4ths... but use up 9 strings to just complete one octave. BE-C6th stretches over 2 octaves with 10 strings.
I am NOT suggesting to scrap the idea. I share the interest in the core principle that diminished chords, when understood as "the mother" of all chords, is a captivating concept. And it's helped me a LOT to decode the C6th tuning for single note playing and found that it also explained the chord-Pedal positions.
I just don't know how to make a diminished tuning really usable.
... J-D. |
I am not coming to this tuning with any background in standard C6 pedal steel, or pedal steel at all for that matter, so I think I am just approaching this with a completely open mind. I am not sure what you mean by P5&P6 inverted? You can depress P4 and 5 simultaneously (raising the bottom string and lowering the top) to give a modal sounding 7th chord or add another pedal to create 11 sounding chords or 6/9 chords, quartal sounding stuff. To change the tuning to GACEGACE you depress pedals 2 and 3. To play in F#AC#EF#AC#E pedals 1 and 2. E6 pedals 4 and 5 etc. To change a C6th to a C Dom 7th you release pedal 2 etc. To play a 9th you would raise a note instead of lower it. Listen to the Tavares Bros if you want to hear the basic tuning in action. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=388947
Ernie has a D on top, but the basic tuning is pretty much the same. The Duke Kamoku stuff is sublime... Full voicings available for all basic chord forms in straight bar. Easily inverted up and down the fretboard. I feel like this tuning is very intuitive as the pedals correspond to the strings. Thanks for your thoughtful comments! This tuning may not be for everybody, but as of now, I am feeling pretty confidant it is what I thought it could be. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 8:47 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
| J D Sauser wrote: |
The later seeming to be C6th with P5 & P6 inverted?
But IF so, then holding the 2 pedals down to have C6th, how would you access the core C6th pedals?
The tuning would have to be set up based on the whole/half "scale" which would give you m3rds, M3rds, and 4ths... but use up 9 strings to just complete one octave. BE-C6th stretches over 2 octaves with 10 strings.
I am NOT suggesting to scrap the idea. I share the interest in the core principle that diminished chords, when understood as "the mother" of all chords, is a captivating concept. And it's helped me a LOT to decode the C6th tuning for single note playing and found that it also explained the chord-Pedal positions.
I just don't know how to make a diminished tuning really usable.
... J-D. |
I am not coming to this tuning with any background in standard C6 pedal steel, or pedal steel at all for that matter, so I think I am just approaching this with a completely open mind. I am not sure what you mean by P5&P6 inverted? You can depress P4 and 5 simultaneously (raising the bottom string and lowering the top) to give a modal sounding 7th chord or add another pedal to create 11 sounding chords or 6/9 chords, quartal sounding stuff. To change the tuning to GACEGACE you depress pedals 2 and 3. To play in F#AC#EF#AC#E pedals 1 and 2. E6 pedals 4 and 5 etc. To change a C6th to a C Dom 7th you release pedal 2 etc. To play a 9th you would raise a note instead of lower it. Listen to the Tavares Bros if you want to hear the basic tuning in action. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=388947
Ernie has a D on top, but the basic tuning is pretty much the same. The Duke Kamoku stuff is sublime... Full voicings available for all basic chord forms in straight bar. Easily inverted up and down the fretboard. I feel like this tuning is very intuitive as the pedals correspond to the strings. Thanks for your thoughtful comments! This tuning may not be for everybody, but as of now, I am feeling pretty confidant it is what I thought it could be. |
C6th P5 & P6 inverted:
On C6th, if you depress BOTH P5 & P6 you get a diminished with a straight bar.
Thus, when you said, you could have the diminished tuning got to C6th... it's like inverting that change.
I believe Bobby Black's early E9th was tuned A6th and would go to E9th with the pedals down... same concept.
Speedy West's F#9th tuning was an E13th with the pedal which C6th players would equate to P5 down.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 9:22 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
C6th P5 & P6 inverted:
On C6th, if you depress BOTH P5 & P6 you get a diminished with a straight bar.
Thus, when you said, you could have the diminished tuning got to C6th... it's like inverting that change.
I believe Bobby Black's early E9th was tuned A6th and would go to E9th with the pedals down... same concept.
Speedy West's F#9th tuning was an E13th with the pedal which C6th players would equate to P5 down.
... J-D. |
Ok I get it. With a Dim tuning it is pretty much all pedals down, which is a bit of a challenge, but not at all insurmountable.
One of many cool things I am discovering is you have 8 different 6th tunings in the open position with different pedal combos, so you have all the benefits of the relating open strings in any of those. This way you can also add extra color notes with the tip of the bar. It also makes playing in weird keys a bit easier. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 28 Feb 2023 9:49 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
| J D Sauser wrote: |
C6th P5 & P6 inverted:
On C6th, if you depress BOTH P5 & P6 you get a diminished with a straight bar.
Thus, when you said, you could have the diminished tuning got to C6th... it's like inverting that change.
I believe Bobby Black's early E9th was tuned A6th and would go to E9th with the pedals down... same concept.
Speedy West's F#9th tuning was an E13th with the pedal which C6th players would equate to P5 down.
... J-D. |
Ok I get it. With a Dim tuning it is pretty much all pedals down, which is a bit of a challenge, but not at all insurmountable.
One of many cool things I am discovering is you have 8 different 6th tunings in the open position with different pedal combos, so you have all the benefits of the relating open strings in any of those. This way you can also add extra color notes with the tip of the bar. It also makes playing in weird keys a bit easier. |
There is a certain "thing" about 6th chords, but in Jazz you need a good array of M7ths, minors with upper structures (9th, 11th and 13ths)... and then also "asymmetry" of changes... like P8 raising not both C's but only one.
I still believe that just like theory laid out by Barry Harrys suggest, one can "pull" all these chords and alterations therefrom off a diminished tuning.
Still, my concern is, that the tuning needs to offer minor 3rd AND Major 3rd pairs all over. C6th/Am7 does that fairly well.
C6th really should be called C<b>6</b>th... since the addition of 1st string D it's only one degree short of being Diatonic. If one would tune up the bottom C to D, like Maurice and a hand full of others do, it would be D-Dorian tuning... except for the lacking B.
It has more FM7/9th than CM or Am too.
Now that's just "names", but the mater of the fact is, that if played out to it's max potential, the BE-C6th is a multi-chord-tuning, by the addition of roots A, F and debatably D.
As I tried to describe in my first answer, It brakes up each and any chord in being fairly readily accessible in an AVERAGE of about every 3 frets... which again points towards Barry Harris' and your (and my) idea (retro-engineered).
The thing is, that being able to create a C6th out of a brand new tuning is by far not as important than the ability to create ALL chord qualities and alterations desirable and THAT in a tunable way.
I have several changes I stack. Believe me that even tuning essentially ET (Equal Temperament/aka. "straight") it IS a challenge to make these change combinations sound acceptable to the ear... so that IF there is some compounded detuning, it rather tends to be towards JI (Just Intonation) and not even farther off.
Again, I am not saying "don't"... I was on the verge of dedicating a guitar to trying something down that thought... but I know it will such the living daylights out of my time... and I am trying to build a new very different PSG on top of really just wanting to play and play.
I'd love to see you do it though, hehe! 
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2023 6:43 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
Still, my concern is, that the tuning needs to offer minor 3rd AND Major 3rd pairs all over. C6th/Am7 does that fairly well.
The thing is, that being able to create a C6th out of a brand new tuning is by far not as important than the ability to create ALL chord qualities and alterations desirable and THAT in a tunable way.
I have several changes I stack. Believe me that even tuning essentially ET (Equal Temperament/aka. "straight") it IS a challenge to make these change combinations sound acceptable to the ear... so that IF there is some compounded detuning, it rather tends to be towards JI (Just Intonation) and not even farther off.
Again, I am not saying "don't"... I was on the verge of dedicating a guitar to trying something down that thought... but I know it will such the living daylights out of my time... and I am trying to build a new very different PSG on top of really just wanting to play and play.
I'd love to see you do it though, hehe!
... J-D. |
You make some very good points about developing a new tuning. C6 has gone through a long period of development with the help of some very dynamic players. The diminished tuning has been sitting there the whole time going back to the Tavares brothers and one of the first pedal steel guitars. Maybe it is time to give it a more serious look.
I haven't found many limits with the tuning, but expanded chords contains the rt. and the 5th are not possible. Here is one approach, basically substituting triads, that could be used for upper chord structures. https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/upper-structure-triads/
On my new project guitar there is room for a couple knee levers and I am toying with the idea of making the E's independent. Keeping P8 but adding either a raise or lower to either E will make some chords easier to deal with, Major/minor chords or 13th as well as others. I have also thought about a low static string 9 or an independent string 8 bass note. Lots of ways this tuning could be altered, but for now I am concentrating on the core Dim tuning. Thanks for the insights! |
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