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Topic: Emmons push-pull guitar musings |
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 2:03 am |
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Is the majority of the extra weight of an Emmons push pull
in the rods/linkage mechanisms?
Certainly a rod that pushes needs to be heftier than one that pulls.
I wonder if the extra weight affects the tone positively. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 7:25 am
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The push rods don't appear to be any heavier than the pull rods.
Erv |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 9:25 am
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| Yeh, but both are heavier than what is used on an all-pull guitar aren't they Erv? |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 9:33 am
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That could be.
Erv |
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Bobby Hearn
From:
Henrietta, Tx
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 9:39 am
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| All that extra tone makes it heavy. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 10:09 am
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An all pull guitar has a separate rod for each raise or lower on each pedal or lever
A push pull has A SINGLE ROD for raises and ONE ROD for lowers on each string that is raised or lowered.
Waaay fewer rods on a push pull
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 11:06 am
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Am I missing something -
Is an Emmons push pull the same weight as its' all pull counterpart? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 1:39 pm
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The push pulls extra weight mainly comes from that 6lb pedal stop iron bar and a little from extra bell crank weights over the all pull. Don’t know if Legrands have that iron pedal stop bar but sure they do.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Aug 2022 4:34 pm Re: Emmons push-pull guitar musings
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
Is the majority of the extra weight of an Emmons push pull
in the rods/linkage mechanisms? |
No.
| Quote: |
| Certainly a rod that pushes needs to be heftier than one that pulls. |
Again, no. In the case of the p/p, the rods were actually smaller (.109" dia.) than some other guitars that also used steel rods, which measured .125" diameter.
| Quote: |
| I wonder if the extra weight affects the tone positively. |
Definitely not. Other guitars like the MSA, BSG, and Dekley were heavier than the p/p. So weight, in itself, doesn't translate directly into great tone.
The p/p guitars had that heavy steel stop-bar, and also used thicker wood than some other guitars. Those two factors were major contributors in making them heavier (than some other guitars). There is no "one" factor that causes great tone. Rather, it comes from many parts of the whole system acting together. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2022 7:22 am
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I think the tone can mainly be attributed to the design of the changer.
When a pedal or knee lever is activated, the finger makes a solid metal to metal contact.
The ZB has a similar design and that contributes to their tone also.
Erv |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2022 7:23 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I think the tone can mainly be attributed to the design of the changer.
When a pedal or knee lever is activated, the finger makes a solid metal to metal contact.
The ZB has a similar design and that contributes to their tone also.
Erv |
I totally agree Erv
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 11 Aug 2022 9:18 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I think the tone can mainly be attributed to the design of the changer.
When a pedal or knee lever is activated, the finger makes a solid metal to metal contact... |
It's actually metal to wood contact, but the age-old counter argument to this is the standard E9 E>F raise on string 4 (or any change with a half-tone tuner). No contact, same tone. I believe you are correct that the inherent tone quality common to most PPs is largely attributable to the changer design, but seems to me that it has more to do with the significant mass of the axle and the way it's attached to the guitar. That's why bolt-ons tend to sound different than cut tails, cut tail axle mounts are firmly anchored directly to the body and end plate.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2022 11:12 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I think the tone can mainly be attributed to the design of the changer.
When a pedal or knee lever is activated, the finger makes a solid metal to metal contact... |
It's actually metal to wood contact, but the age-old counter argument to this is the standard E9 E>F raise on string 4 (or any change with a half-tone tuner). No contact, same tone. I believe you are correct that the inherent tone quality common to most PPs is largely attributable to the changer design, but seems to me that it has more to do with the significant mass of the axle and the way it's attached to the guitar. That's why bolt-ons tend to sound different than cut tails, cut tail axle mounts are firmly anchored directly to the body and end plate. |
Yes, same tone but you have to take in consideration that the changer vibrates all over so you got at least 7 or 8 others touching the body. Bolt ons still have basically the same body contact with changers, I think they sound different because now, you got the whole neck touching can get. They are my favorite sounding Emmons.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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