Intervallic approach to improvising

Andrew Goulet · Posted 21 Mar 2022 6:21 am

Happy spring to everyone!

I'm focusing on improving my improvisations. My usually approach is to either follow along with the chords (usually open and AB positions) or use a blues scale pattern (or mix the two approaches). This is ok, but I want more knowledge and control of the fretboard so I can play more musical, melodic lines and get what is in my head out of the guitar.

I recently read a thread about Paul Franklin's intervallic approach to improvising, where he recommends learning where everything related to major and minor chords is on the fretboard, and thinking in triads rather than scales.

I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around this. I know where my open, A pedal, E lever, AB, and AF chord positions are. Does the intervallic approach mean finding the scale tones for a particular progression at every fret of the neck? If it does, how is this different than learning scales and applying them? Or does it mean that when the progression moves to a new chords, you "switch" to that chords scale and use those tones?

I'm self-taught with a rudimentary knowledge of music theory (can you tell?!) So I'm probably missing something obvious. But I'm finding myself stuck in a pedal mashing rut when it comes to solos and I know there's a better way.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Here's my best guess:

Scales are tone and semitone intervals in a rigid and prescribed ascending / descending framework. They are good exercises because alot of music is played out of them. Major scale: TTS TTTS. Minor scale TS TTS TT

A melody / solo can be any interval and any note in or out of scale and in any direction. Different genres have different degrees of adherance to which scales and passing tones are "expected". Blues has a certain framework, as does country - as does free jazz which has very little structure afaik unless you start analyzing the music through modes.

For melody / solo creation if you needed to go up or down by a 3rd or fifth from any given starting point - does one know their steel enough to go there in real time? I don't, but I can figure it out. Figuring it out helps cement a different skill. Intervals. You suspend scale template mindset structure and just count semitone distances.

There are a lot of moving pieces in playing steel and one goal of practise is to keep opening up the fretboard. And that reduces to knowing any and all intervals from any starting point.

That said most melodies and solos have an abundance of phrases that are heavily adjacent scale notes. I do think knowing scales is the starting point for most real life playing.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Andrew Goulet · Posted 21 Mar 2022 12:46 pm

You're right, Tucker. I use some harmonized scales, but mostly just for intros. When I have to take a ride, I usually don't use them. But they seem key to "connect" positions.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club

Gary Spaeth · From: Wisconsin, USA

check out jens larson and jack ruch on youtube. lot's of improv by many others.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Andrew Goulet · Posted 22 Mar 2022 4:32 pm

Thanks so much for the tip on Jens, Gary, and for your insight into some of your method, Dave.

As I was turning this question of improvisation over in my head, I realized that I never substitute chords. I found a few threads about this (this one has some really helpful info: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=249072&sid=dc47236a982f5e5d24fcf61ab1d97fe6).

I understand the basic theory behind substitutions, but I'll need to do some more study and playing to fully understand how to effectively substitute and then actually use substitutions in a live situation. But this is very promising to me, and already I'm expanding my possibilities using rules that I can mostly grasp and will some day be able to use without too much thought.

I didn't realize I should know where minor chords with a flat 5 were on the fretboard!
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

That’s a good link, Andrew.

Paul Franklin talks about intervallic/triadic improvisation. So it’s numbers instead of note names and it’s triads not scales. I don’t believe this means you can just disregard scales and note names. You still have to know what the numbers mean in terms of the scales they are derived from, and the note names of the keys are obviously relevant.

Okay, enough talk. Here’s a sax guy teaching basic triadic pairs. Yeah, he mentions a lot of note names, but he starts off by explaining the 1-3-5’s.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2nTndTLKzY4

Regarding chord substitutions, you should first know a good bit about the chord you are substituting for. After all, the flat five of the flat five is the five.

Andrew Goulet · Posted 23 Mar 2022 4:37 am

Thanks Fred! That video is really helpful.

I recently re-wrote all of my charts as Nashville Numbers. This was extremely helpful for me. It not only made it easier to learn, recall, and read many tunes, but also gave me a better understanding of the fretboard. That led me to realize that I've been restricted in my improvising (phrasing, note choice, etc...) Restricted not by my technique, so much (although everything needs improvement all the time, doesn't it) but by my knowledge.

Another thing that has recently helped me is to dissect what is going on in each "good" lick in terms of intervals and the underlying chord. It seems simple, maybe, but internalizing the character of those intervals and then knowing how to find them all over the guitar seems like a winning combo to getting those melodies out of your head and onto the guitar.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club

George Biner · From: Los Angeles, CA

Sounds like you and I have the same problem -- not getting the music in our head out of the guitar and instead playing what the hands are used to (same old or easier licks) -- I think the answer is to really get in touch with the licks we hear internally and disciplining ourselves to get them out of the instrument -- let the head be in charge, not the hands

I think Paul Franklin is a great player and educator, but sometimes his advice to memorize things is beyond the time frames of casual players -- there are an infinite number of intervals on this instrument, you are not going to memorize them -- you need to mine the veins in the direction you want to go and not try to know the whole instrument

But in general, on intervals, it is much better to say "I know a lick that is great for the I-IV chord transition" rather than "for the C to F transition" because the former is generalized for any song -- definitely take the specific chord and note names out and generalize the knowledge. Like, I don't really know the names of the strings on my guitar, but I know the intervals they give in the main chord shapes.
_________________
Guacamole Mafia - acoustic harmony duo
Electrical engineer / amp tech in West Los Angeles -- I fix Peaveys
"Now there is a snappy sounding instrument. That f****r really sings." - Jerry Garcia

Andrew Goulet · Posted 24 Mar 2022 7:23 pm

That's a pretty good description of the problem from my point of view, too, George! I think knowing the whole instrument is a good goal, as long as one can stay focused, break it into manageable chunks, and apply it to the music you're playing in a live situation. It's definitely intimidating though, and I certainly have a "safety zone" in a live improvising situation.

You're spot on about thinking in intervals. That has helped me greatly in learning the neck and applying harmony. I've also been dissecting appealing phrases, and getting back to some ear training. Each interval really does have its own character.

In an older thread about improvising, someone offered a reminder that rhythm and silence are also key elements of expression, which is something I would do well to remember. Shocked

_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Knowledge of intervals tells you that when you play a 1-3-5 C major triad, you are also playing the b7-9-11 of a D11 chord, or the b3-5-b7 of an Am7, or the 5-7-9 of Fmaj9. It tells you that there are two perfect 5ths in a major 7 chord as well as a minor 7 chord. It tells you that one of two adjacent notes from a major scale will fit over all 7 diatonic chords in that key, and how to create tension and resolution with triadic pairs.

Licks are born out stuff that's in your head, or things that have been copied and become part of your style. Intervallic knowledge puts more stuff in your head to draw from.

Tom Spaulding · From: Tennessee, USA

Check out Paul's blog post on a similar topic: Chord Tones and Extensions

Andrew Goulet · Posted 25 Mar 2022 4:55 pm

Thanks, Fred. I think you've got it right there. I think my brain is sort of like compost. The knowledge I put in there takes a while to change from weird garbage to rich soil. Everything I use now when improvising was new knowledge at some point.

More sitting. More playing. More gigs.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Chris Templeton · From: The Green Mountain State

Great comments, all.
Yes, country music steel is pretty much locked into what's acceptable.
Paul's work with Dire Straits is, for me, the best examples of steel playeed out of the "out of the Box".
His work with the Notting Hillbillies is an excellent example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzumKzjzJp4&list=PLv6cniNxzL4QMAmeEiEeqlV1VrLv3BN66
_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8:

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, Quilter TT-12 & TT-15, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
----------------------------------

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

At some point along the way I realized that for the vast majority of songs you'll play (songs with the 1,4,5 chords all major triads) the only difference you'll find between those chords is with the 7th and 4th degrees of the scale.

I'll use three songs as an example.
-That's How I Got To Memphis
-Six Days On the Road
-Rainy Day Women

In 'Memphis' the 1,4,5 will be purely diatonic, meaning for the 1 chord you'll have a major 7th and a natural 4. The 5 chord is dominant (natural 4, flat 7), and the 4 chord will have a raised 4th and natural(maj) 7th.

For Six Days on the Road, just break all the rules and treat all three chords like dominant 7ths.

Rainy Day Women is one that I'd say falls somewhere between the two. The big difference between a song like this and "Memphis" would be how you treat the 4 chord. If you're looking for a little more attitude without playing a dominant 7th, you can play a natural 4 on the 4 chord. *Think pressing B pedal third string on and off while on the 4 chord.

Of course rules can be broken, but generally speaking I think of it like this...

A sweet song with pure harmony
1 chord - maj 7, nat 4
4 chord - maj 7, raised 4
5 chord - flat 7, nat 4

A song with lots of attitude
All chords - flat 7, nat 4

A song that's a little edgy but doesn't go fully dominant
1 chord - maj 7, nat 4
4 chord - maj 7, nat 4
5 chord - flat 7, nat 4

In this last example you can often use a flat 7 or maj 7th on the 1 or 4 chords during the song, depending on how much 'attitude' you want to put in there.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I for one have no interest in "Scales"... that are being imposed over chord changes. I have tried to no avail and seen others end up frustrated or feeling inadequate.
I haven't observed too many to successfully become CREDIBLE improvisers by using the Scale approach on a polytonal instrument. After all, we're not playing flute or trombone.
OUR instrument is spectacularly polytonal and CHORDAL in it's build up, even more than a standard guitar. Why not take that advantage an run with it?

I strongly believe I can demonstrate to anyone that even "The Blues" of the likes of BB King, Freddy King... BURGER King if you so will, is NOT played credibly using just "the Pentatonic" or the "minor or major Blues Scale" or "Mixolydian" or "what have ya scale"... it's about the CHORDS and their DEGREES.

If you identify just on one chord position which degrees (besides 1, 3 & 5) make up "The Blues"... you will soon find yourself playing around and with 10 out of 12 available degrees (and the "Blues Scale" has... SIX!).
IF then you do the same using the degrees of the next chords... you'll be playing ALL 12 degrees only after the second chord.
So, if you want a "scale" that does all that, why not study the "Chromatic Scale" and drive yourself crazy.

Paul Franklin was said to have been THE "Scale" & "Modes" player DECADES ago, and he MAY have been. In his course he seems to at lest alude to the fact that he WENT from scales to the chord-based approach. On the Steel Guitar, which is after all a CHORD-Machine par excellence, it would seem to make sense.

In improvisation, the ones that "cut it" are the ones who "SAY" things... play their emotions, the ones that create.
Scales and modes are the SCHOOLS' preferred pitch to students, because it promises the quickest "fix". "Learn this SECRET scale and... " or "Oh Boy Am I Lost Scale". You can find Barry Harris (Bebop and Jazz educator) on youtube vent his frustration with Academia claiming that Bebop was "Modal".

The fact that an Artist does not "think" (anymore) is pretty much the CONTRARY from "being lost"... They are... have become FREE. It's a totally different state of mind than "Oh Boy Am I Lost" (and before the Fan-Police wants to kick it at me because I reject Jeff Newman's OBAIL Blues, let me reiterate my love and respect for him and how much I miss him... but OBAIL is "naw".)

On C6th... pretty much every chord repeats in some shape or form (using pedals and levers in just their BASIC USES) an AVERAGE of every 3 frets. So, you have 4 positions spread out over an octave in minor, Major, and Dominant and most of all DIMINISHED which is the mother of all chords from which one can form any chord with minor alterations of the diminished. On EVERY fret there are 4 Diminished chords to be found! And with that the "mother" to 4 chords in ANY quality (major, minor, dom, etc)... thus the whole motherload of chords, degrees... call it notes is there within 3 fets... ALL of it in any of the 12 keys!
Playing single notes, there is no need for pedals and levers... one alters the fixed pitch positions and playing "boxes" or "pockets" form... ALL with ALL degrees available but arranged differently, the later which may seem to make learning them more strenuous, but offering an almost unlimited to trade those degrees using different slide-in's and out's... and a "language" or "dialect" develops as one is learning to spell what one wants to "say".

Paul Franklin urges us "learn your Intervals!"... by which I came to understand that he means "learn your DEGREES". He reminds us that artists the like of Lloyd Green can play the way they have for a lifetime because the know their "Intervals" (really "degrees")... by SOUND and location.

It's degrees that make the identifiable sounds we long to hear (hopefully long to hear). They "say" the same thing in an A7th-chord as they'll "say" in a B7th or ANY 7th-chord. The same happens with what the degrees of minor or Major chords will say. It is MUCH easier to memorize these sound and where they are than trying to play ONE scale against different chords, because the "color", what the scale's degrees will say, will vary with each chord that scales is imposed against.

Many are mislead that playing chord-"notes" is limited to basic Arpeggios. It's not.
I have observed generation so heirs of Dajango Reinhardt's legacy learning chords first (accompaniment) and then practice Arpeggios over all chord changes with Enclosures. When you add half tone/whole tone enclosures to a 4-note chord (minor 6th or dom7th, Major 6th or 7th) you pretty soon are playing 9 to 10 degrees our of that chord.

Sadly, we steel player are not yanked thru playing accompaniment (chords) for a year or two. But we SHOULD study chord, especially on C6th and play them to get an idea of what we COULD play agains them.

... J-D.

just some afterthoughts (aka.: "Disclaimer"):
Btw... guys... I just re-read my not so unusually lengthy post on here and I came to feel that it could be read as coming off "patronizing". Yes I have strong opinions and I try my best to not just state them, but to explain them and the later is not always very easy. I appreciate the patience.
Anyways, I just wanted to add that I don't mean to sound like that... Rolling Eyes

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Andrew Goulet · Posted 27 Mar 2022 6:09 pm

Thank you, Brett, for your perspective, and especially for illustrating it with examples. It's eye-opening to realize how close everything really is on the fretboard and what that means for improvisation. I've been playing Six Days with my main working band and I do have fun hammering those dominant 7th chords.

"It's degrees that make the identifiable sounds we long to hear (hopefully long to hear). They "say" the same thing in an A7th-chord as they'll "say" in a B7th or ANY 7th-chord. The same happens with what the degrees of minor or Major chords will say. It is MUCH easier to memorize these sound and where they are than trying to play ONE scale against different chords, because the "color", what the scale's degrees will say, will vary with each chord that scales is imposed against."

Yes, very much! Thank you, J D. This discussion has highlighted to me the importance of learning the color of the intervals, as you say, in different contexts.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Interesting discussion this is turning into. I like hearing perspectives. Everyone has a belief about what is required to get them to the next step in their capability.

I find making gains on steel a low ROI activity and wish I had built better practice regimens much earlier in this endeavour. Classical instruction has a mix of theory, technique, exercises, and application in repertoire (and ought to have application in improvisation). Also, ear training is a formalized study at music school. They teach you to hear progressions, identify chords, including extended chords, write out music scores of short melodies, etc.).

Are there shortcuts? (starting at age of 5 is probably the best one).

In spite of the contrasting opinions on the matter, I am of the opinion that scales and positional playing are one of the core areas of building the overall skillsets. Because e9 is chromatic top to bottom, there are 12 fixed fret positions to play every scale, some lay out better than others.

I have been using an exercise book from the piano-jazz domain used for improvisation training that has short monophonic "intervallic" sequences within the context of some chord structure (say dominant 7) to help build chops and vocabulary... not unlike the numerous "100 hot licks" that can be found in the steel instructional world except in score (not tab).

I'll drop this youtube video here, as I believe Steve Dawson gives a good example of what I am referring to.

a) demonstrates a scale,
b) applies the knowledge of it in a creative way,
c) demonstrates the integration of the positional playing of these scale tones into his overall improvisational vocabulary.

He makes it look wayy too easy, of course - Maybe it is Smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQUpJ36j09g&t=244s

(Edit: Just found out, he's touring within striking distance in two weeks Smile

)

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Overstating the obvious here maybe, but if you play Cmaj7 chord tones and the diatonic notes between them, congratulations you just played a C major scale.
C D E F G A B

Tom G., there is a bit more than one pentatonic scale in multiple positions being played in that video. Maybe the lesson is about applying the pentatonic scale of each implied chord. Or maybe it’s not a lesson at all, and just a guy playing some cool music.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic