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Topic: Carter built-in 1/2 tone tuner |
Bob Metzger
From:
Waltham (Boston), MA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2022 1:43 pm |
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I worked on a friend's Carter S-10 steel with a built-in 1/2 tone tuner on the D#-2nd string (D# to D to C#) in E9 tuning. I didn't think this stock Carter 1/2 tone tuner worked that good and was wondering if any other Carter steel guys had any suggestions to get it to perform better.
Thanks,
Bob M.
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Bob M. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 21 Feb 2022 2:50 pm
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Hey Bob.
I don't use half stops (and I do something completely different with my 2nd string) so back when I was playing a Carter I didn't set it up.
But... I've studied on 'the theory of it'.
We're talking about the dummy finger, right? This is where it really would have been nice to make the return springs adjustable. Fabian claimed that it was one more way for a customer to screw up his guitar so he rejected it and....I don't much care for his thinking. I admire the guitars with multiple user accessible adjustment points.
The adjustable features on this will be the same idea as leveraging the rodding. For max resistance on the rod to the dummy, you'd want the bellcrank slot farthest out from the cross shaft and the changer hole closest to the top of the guitar.
In my mind, and what I'd be experimenting with, I'd want the rodding to the 2nd string to be the opposite. I'd go for longest throw and lightest touch --- Bellcrank slot close to the shaft and changer hole farthest from the top of the guitar.
I would consider cutting the spring on the dummy finger and making it shorter, making it as stiff as possible. However while I've read many suggestions about doing this on guitars without adjustable return springs, I have never succesfully done this so that it did not look like a hack. So I'm not strongly advocating it. However it would probably be an effective addition to the feel of the stop. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 21 Feb 2022 4:12 pm
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| Jon Light wrote: |
Hey Bob.
I don't use half stops (and I do something completely different with my 2nd string) so back when I was playing a Carter I didn't set it up.
But... I've studied on 'the theory of it'.
We're talking about the dummy finger, right? This is where it really would have been nice to make the return springs adjustable. Fabian claimed that it was one more way for a customer to screw up his guitar so he rejected it and....I don't much care for his thinking. I admire the guitars with multiple user accessible adjustment points.
The adjustable features on this will be the same idea as leveraging the rodding. For max resistance on the rod to the dummy, you'd want the bellcrank slot farthest out from the cross shaft and the changer hole closest to the top of the guitar.
In my mind, and what I'd be experimenting with, I'd want the rodding to the 2nd string to be the opposite. I'd go for longest throw and lightest touch --- Bellcrank slot close to the shaft and changer hole farthest from the top of the guitar.
I would consider cutting the spring on the dummy finger and making it shorter, making it as stiff as possible. However while I've read many suggestions about doing this on guitars without adjustable return springs, I have never succesfully done this so that it did not look like a hack. So I'm not strongly advocating it. However it would probably be an effective addition to the feel of the stop. |
Cutting one loop does the trick. When I first cut the spring, I cut off 2 loops. It took me and 14 neighbors to push the lever past the stop to the C#.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2022 5:55 pm
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Hey Bob! Long time!
I put adjustable springs on my EMCI with a kit Michael Yahl made for use on an MSA. Maybe it'll work on a Carter? Ask Michael, a great guy whose work is impeccable. https://www.psgparts.com/main.sc |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2022 7:15 pm
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I tried Richard's suggestion, and cut one loop off of that spring. It was a definite improvement, but I might want more resistance (not so much that I'd need to summon assistance).
My 2008 Carter SD-10 has a 4-raise/2-lower changer, but finger #11 has 3 lower-holes. Ample room for fine-tuning. I'm going to play with it. I betcha I still won't be super fond of using the half-stop, but I'm glad it's there. |
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Bob Metzger
From:
Waltham (Boston), MA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2022 8:15 pm
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Thanks for the replies and suggestions. Hi Jon and Hi Peter - it's been a while.
Now, as I said, I was working on this steel for a friend of mine. For myself, I found the 1/2 tone tuner adequate but my buddy had trouble finding the half tone (D) sweet spot with his knee on the lever. I set it up as per the instruction in the Carter manual. My friend also lowers the D-9th string to C# on the same Rt knee mvng Rt. lever.
I set this up so the 11th finger (or dummy finger) starts its travel at the very same time the D-9th string starts its lower to C#. This is very easy to see and adjust when the steel is upside down in the case, as you can synchronize the movement of fingers 2, 11 and 9. I did mess around with different positions on the puller finger and I think I got it as good as this system is capable of doing.
I have installed a number of half-tone tuners on my steels (mostly Sho-Buds) using springs, stops and brass barrel tuners with much greater success - I find these work really good.
I will consider removing one loop from the lower spring although I've never had any great success doing this in the past. However, maybe that's the right solution for the Carter built-in 1/2 tone tuner.
Do any other Carter users find that the mechanics of the Carter version of the half-tone tuner only to be so-so?
Again, thanks for posting,
Bob M.
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Bob M. |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 22 Feb 2022 1:52 am
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Hi Bob!
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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 22 Feb 2022 4:30 am
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| Bob Metzger wrote: |
Thanks for the replies and suggestions. Hi Jon and Hi Peter - it's been a while.
Now, as I said, I was working on this steel for a friend of mine. For myself, I found the 1/2 tone tuner adequate but my buddy had trouble finding the half tone (D) sweet spot with his knee on the lever. I set it up as per the instruction in the Carter manual. My friend also lowers the D-9th string to C# on the same Rt knee mvng Rt. lever.
I set this up so the 11th finger (or dummy finger) starts its travel at the very same time the D-9th string starts its lower to C#. This is very easy to see and adjust when the steel is upside down in the case, as you can synchronize the movement of fingers 2, 11 and 9. I did mess around with different positions on the puller finger and I think I got it as good as this system is capable of doing.
I have installed a number of half-tone tuners on my steels (mostly Sho-Buds) using springs, stops and brass barrel tuners with much greater success - I find these work really good.
I will consider removing one loop from the lower spring although I've never had any great success doing this in the past. However, maybe that's the right solution for the Carter built-in 1/2 tone tuner.
Do any other Carter users find that the mechanics of the Carter version of the half-tone tuner only to be so-so?
Again, thanks for posting,
Bob M. |
I think it is one of the best ideas for a half stop. The mechanical ones under the guitar are great too, but I hated having to reach under the guitar on the 2 Sho-Buds I had if I needed to adjust it. The Carter is just tuned with a nylon tuning nut at the end plate like any other pedal change (info for people that have no idea what the Carter half stop mechanism is). The biggest problem for me was the spring being too weak for a firm stop. There was always confusion for me whether the added resistance I was feeling was the 9th string lower to C# kicking in, or my C6 string 3 lower to B that I was feeling. Cutting down the spring solved that problem for me.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Ron Hogan
From:
Nashville, TN, usa
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Posted 22 Feb 2022 7:08 am
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You can add this to make all return springs easily adjusted.
CLICK HERE
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Bob Metzger
From:
Waltham (Boston), MA, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2022 10:31 am
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There's no doubt in my mind adding that plate that makes all the return springs adjustable is a great thing and a great way to get all the pedals/knee levers to respond just right.
Yes, I'll experiment a little more to get that Carter 1/2 tone feel stop a little more definitive. I usually save cutting one loop off of the return spring as a last resort.
Thanks for your replies,
Bob M.
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Bob M. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2022 11:29 am
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| Bob, my Infinity and EMCI have the same type of 1/2 stop device. I’ve made them work well enough for me with rod placement at the finger and bellcrank. Besides a shorter, stiffer spring perhaps you could find a longer bellcrank that fits the Carter crossroad? |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2022 12:08 pm
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| Bob Metzger wrote: |
adding that plate that makes all the return springs adjustable is a great thing and a great way to get all the pedals/knee levers to respond just right.
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It helps to make the springs as long as possible, so they can still have tension when almost returned (when they need tension the most), while not having too much tension when fully extended (which feels bad). On my GFI I made then as long as they could be and still fit into the case:
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2022 7:09 am
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| It occurs to me that if you just stiffen up the spring on 9 one way or the other you don't have to bother with the dummy finger. |
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Ron Hogan
From:
Nashville, TN, usa
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Posted 16 Mar 2022 2:03 pm
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Mullen sells a half stop .
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