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Topic: Excel vs. Emmons string spacing |
Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2021 8:08 am |
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I've heard that the Excel guitars have a tighter string spacing than "normal" for a PSG.
I play an Emmons SKH and I measure .342" (8.62mm) center to center string spacing. For 10 strings, this is about 3.078"(77.58mm) center to center.
Can one of you Excel owners take a string spacing measurement for me please? And if is is tighter, did you find it hard to play after coming from a more standard PSG?
...edit...
I just went to Greg Cutshaw's review of his Excel S12 (thanks Greg!) and he says "string spacing is 3.37" - I assume this is a caliper across all 12 strings. Divided by 11, that gives a string-to-string spacing of .306". Yikes- that is .035" (.889mm) tighter..That seems like a large difference.
I wonder if the Williams has a wider spacing, more like an Emmons?
If I end up getting an Excel, I'll still want to use one of my Emonnses as a practice rig.
_________________
"You call that thing a guitar?"
Last edited by Lynn Kasdorf on 23 Aug 2021 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Aug 2021 9:57 am
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My Excel S12 measures 3.75" and if you divide that by 11 it's .340 - this is close to the traditional 11/32"
My Williams is tighter - 3.6" divided by 11 is .327 - it takes a little getting used to but it's my practice guitar. When I gig on the Excel it feels really free!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Oliver Samland
From:
Hamburg, Germany
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 3:54 am
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Hi Lynn,
I have an Emmons P/P D-10 and an Excel S-10. The string spacing differences are no problem to adjust to, in fact I never actually think about it when switching steels. (Pedal/lever action between the clunky old P/P and the very light & smooth running Excel is a different story, though.)
I can measure the Excel's string spacing when I get home.
Ollie
P.S. Spinal disk spacing is noticeably tighter when carrying the Emmons. |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 4:22 am
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Although I don't own an Excel right now, I've had several in the past. The newer ones had spacing pretty close to Emmons, but the older ones were noticeably narrower. I think that the reputation Excel has for narrow string spacing probably comes largely from the older guitars.
Dave |
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Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 5:20 am
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| David Ball wrote: |
Although I don't own an Excel right now, I've had several in the past. The newer ones had spacing pretty close to Emmons, but the older ones were noticeably narrower. I think that the reputation Excel has for narrow string spacing probably comes largely from the older guitars.
Dave |
I see- that makes sense. I guess Mitsuo is always trying things.
_________________
"You call that thing a guitar?" |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 7:09 am
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Mitsuo will know perfectly well what the conventional spacing is. I daresay he has experimented with something narrower in the past. Mine is a 2017 model and is near enough to 11/32"
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 7:29 am
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The real(and most important) question: is standard string spacing 0.342†or 0.343†lol?
These things matter you know!
_________________
Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 8:53 am
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If you round it up, 11/32" is actually 0.344" 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 9:39 am
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| David Ball wrote: |
Although I don't own an Excel right now, I've had several in the past. The newer ones had spacing pretty close to Emmons, but the older ones were noticeably narrower. I think that the reputation Excel has for narrow string spacing probably comes largely from the older guitars.
Dave |
I tried playing one many, many years ago. The strings, in my opinion, were way too close to each other.
~Lee |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 10:45 am
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
I tried playing one many, many years ago. The strings, in my opinion, were way too close to each other.
~Lee |
That's why I sold my first one--great guitar, but I couldn't play it. The last one I had, a fairly recent Superb 12 string, played great. Spacing was much better than that first one.
Dave |
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Oliver Samland
From:
Hamburg, Germany
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 2:55 pm
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The string spacing on my Excel is not equaly spaced. I measured 0.330 (!) on the changer and 0.271 (!!) on the nut.
These values came as a surprise as it actually is quite a difference compared to the Emmons..
Well Lynn, Germans are not particularly well known for being sensitive, I guess I'm no exception. 
Please note: my well beloved Excel was build in the 80's, so although it shares a lot of features with Mitsuo's recent builds already, it is an older model.
Ollie |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2021 10:08 pm
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I played an SD12 PedalMaster briefly and its string spacing of the nut at the keyhead was just slightly less than at the changer bridge, definitely a noticeable difference from most other steels, and I wound up really loving that, made hammer ons and pull offs at fret 0 super easy!
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Aug 2021 12:14 am
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Most steels taper towards the nut. I have never come across a practical explanation, so I assume it's aesthetic. The only meaningful place to measure the spacing is at the bridge. Of course the place at which you pick is what counts, but that varies.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
Last edited by Ian Rae on 25 Aug 2021 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lynn Kasdorf
From:
Waterford Virginia, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2021 3:54 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Most steels taper towards the neck. I have never come across a practical explanation, so I assume it's aesthetic. The only meaningful place to measure the spacing is at the bridge. Of course the place at which you pick is what counts, but that varies. |
Wow- I never realized that! I just measured my Emmons SKH and it is 2.53" at the nut and 3.05" at the bridge- basically a 1/2" difference! I wonder why this is done, and if all PSGs taper like this? Aesthetics? Maybe...
_________________
"You call that thing a guitar?" |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 25 Aug 2021 5:12 am
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| The only meaningful place to measure the spacing is at the bridge. Of course the place at which you pick is what counts, but that varies. |
I'm gonna somewhat disagree there, because string spacing down the neck toward the nut affects the ease of slanting the bar. So maybe it doesn't matter if you never slant. But some pedal steel players do slant the bar, including me.
If you're planning to buy a new guitar, I suggest you communicate directly with the builders to find out what your options are relative to string spacing, straight from the horse's mouth, rather than rely on information here. Or if you go used, I'd ask the seller to measure the spacing at nut and bridge. From what I'm reading here, it sounds like these parameters vary some. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Aug 2021 9:47 am
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I'm a non-slanter (except for fine tuning) so what Dave says hadn't occurred to me. If you're going to do serious non-pedal-type slants then clearly the less taper the better.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Aug 2021 12:46 pm
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Everything about the Excel is small and neat, but you have to allow for the user!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2021 2:23 pm
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Does string spacing going narrow at the nut introduce subtle tuning issues? Isn't string length on outer strings a smidgen longer than the middle strings?
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Aug 2021 11:38 pm
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No. The bar divides the string in the same ratio whatever the taper. Elementary geometry.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Posted 26 Aug 2021 4:00 am
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But does it divide the strings evenly? Whatever the case, it's not noticeable.
When I recorded my "Lakehouse Waltz" around '89, (I'll put it on Soundcloud when I can. Sign in issues). I was so nervous that after changing strings, before the session, I tugged a little too hard when "seating" the strings, I put thin spots in some of the strings and playing three string grips was out of tune and the bar didn't line up with the frets. I had to play mostly single notes or two with a minuscule slant.
At one point, Buddy looked at me with "the look" and said, "have you thought about switching to decaf?".
We recorded it at Bobbe Seymore's studio with Skip engineering.
When I change strings now, I don't tug so hard.
I still don't drink decaf.
_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8: |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Aug 2021 6:43 am
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Ian is absolutely correct - the string length is divided in the same ratio, from string to string. There is no theoretical pitch discrepency. There are pitch discrepancies from different deviations from the "ideal string model" for strings of different pitch and gauge. But not from the different angles and string lengths made due to going from a narrower nut to a wider bridge.
However, narrower string spacing does make string-to-string pitch accuracy more sensitive to bar angle errors. This is a byproduct of the same issue that makes slanting easier with wider string spacing.
I would absolutely prefer a steel guitar with consistent string spacing all the way up and down the neck. I believe the narrower nut is a holdover from Spanish guitar design. On a guitar, narrower spacing at the nut offsets the larger fret spacing "down the neck", and makes it easier to grab chords there. But I can't really see any advantage for steel. |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 26 Aug 2021 7:39 am
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While tapered string width may well be a holdover from Spanish guitar, an equal string spacing would require wider decking to accommodate 10th key to 1st key spacing as well as preventing D10 key interference.
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Jerry Jones |
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