PSG as a rhythm instrument

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

This may have been covered incidentally before but I thought I'd bring it up as a focus.
Are you playing any rhythm guitar like parts on a PSG?
I play PSG in a trio lately and have found it's very beneficial to the sound. We are PSG/Acoustic Guitar/Bass.
If you play in a band with lotso pieces, maybe not.
In fact I've noticed most pros will just stop playing at all during the majority of a tune to keep the cacophony down.
Playing rhythmically with three finger picks is a challenge.
If I play the dobro, I'll occasionally use my thumb pick like a flat pick and strum. This seems to be completely out to the question with on PSG with its sustain, additional intervals, and close string spacing.
So here's a few I've come up with.
1. Chet Atkin/Merle Travis style alternating a damped bass.
2. Damped 2s and 4s.
3. rapidly plucked 1/2/3+6 together over and over - 1/8 notes - kina like "eight to the bar".
4. 5/6/7 with a 1 drone, (you know Chuck Berry). Perhaps only easily achievable on a Universal.
5. Three string triad cord grips only on certain beats.
Anyone else?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yup - with the band doing 40s-early 60s country, proto-rockabilly, and western swing, most of the above, especially #2. Little melodic things in line with #3 also. More on mid-to-fast tempo tunes, and this stuff has to be concise and out of the way. I tend to lay back a lot more on slower stuff - strictly trading fills works better there. This is a band with 5-6 pieces, so I have to be judicious to keep it from getting too cluttered. But staccato rhythm chops don't usually get in the way, and often help propel the faster tunes.

I still struggle to get the Chuck Berry chucka-chucka thing to sound as good as on guitar, and hence don't use it as much. Definitely more a universal thing - the low root drone is just not there most of the time on 10-string E9, at least I struggle to find it. I'm a guitar player, and still play guitar a lot, but not so much in that band. There's already an electric guitar player and usually an acoustic rhythm player.

When I can deal with the complexity of having a slide guitar with me on a pedal steel gig, my style of slide guitar lends itself to rhythm guitar a lot, thanks to the influence of Sonny Landreth. And on more bluesy and rockin' stuff, I sometimes prefer to just go there. But the guitar changes were driving me crazy in that band - she (the singer) is really trying to move from tune to tune quickly. I need a much quicker and more painless way to do the switching, so I have a few seconds to deal with the context-switching required in my head. I can probably devise a technology solution, but haven't yet. Or a guitar tech - yeah right. Laughing

Daniel Baston · From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

I was just watching this yesterday, at about 2:50 Stu Basore plays a beautiful C6 break. Tommy White is playing "bass" under him and it has a really good feel. There is some extra emphasis on 2 and 4. I guess in a 5-6 piece band might be a bit much, but in a trio could work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u_p_dlEX5o&t=328s&ab_channel=MrJamesmvest

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I hear ya Dave. I struggle switching between Dobro and steel in a timely fashion, not to mention adapting to the radically different string spacing and root chord tuning. It usually takes me a tune or two to get in the groove. I also used to play 6 string lap steel tuned the same as my dobro, GBDGBD, ala David Lindley, etc. I've given up on that - too many knob tweaks to dial it in correctly.
Theoretically I should be able to do it all on PSG I suppose.

Jeremy Reeves · From: Chatham, IL, USA

been doing a little of this with banjo rolls on steel

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Yeh, I see that Daniel! We need no other stinkin' instruments.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

ah yes banjo rolls.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Question: if there's already two guitars in the band, what's the necessity of the steel being part of the rhythm section?

Excuse the following rant. If the situations I describe don't apply to your situation, please ignore my opinions... and they are MY opinions only... and carry on as you personally see fit. If you're in a 3 or 4 piece band, the following situations I describe probably wouldn't apply in your band's composition. The smaller the band, the more roles each individual instrument must fill.

Okay, that said... I hate rhythm steel and hate being asked to do it. Steel, IMHO, is a lead instrument or a legato chordal fill instrument. Like a fiddle or a saxophone, it shouldn't have to create a rhythmic pulse unless part of an arrangement. But not a constant presence if at all possible (for the fiddle and saxophone/trumpet, never. And don't get me started on harmonica players Mad

)

I'm not a big fan of the steel guitar being everywhere during a performance; again, if at all possible. It's overkill. The steel guitar and electric guitar, are of very similar timbres and share the same aural space. One sound clutters the other. If your sound is there constantly, when your solo comes it's just "oh, the steel is louder now." If you're not in the mix at all prior to a solo or fill, when you do come in the impact to the listener is far greater. Also applies to playing fills behind a singer; one lead instrument at a time, please.

Likewise steel and fiddle; while of different timbres, both are legato lead instruments and to me don't enhance each other when played simultaneously, unless replicating a horn or string arrangement. But arrangements are another matter entirely.

In the best bands I've played in, when one of the lead instruments is soloing or filling, the other leads play very discreetly, or not at all. When the fiddler or the guitarist is soloing, my hands are pretty much in my lap. I know a good fiddler when I see rosin dust in the armpit of his shirt. Wink

When I'm soloing, I like to hear bass, drums, piano, and maybe a discreet guitar, acoustic if possible. I don't need to hear an electric guitar doubling the snare drum with loud staccato chunks like he's doing a Chuck Berry impersonation of Freddie Greene's archtop.

Of course, all of this depends on the strength of the rhythm section. In big band arrangements the horns rarely if ever play the same stuff as the reeds and at the same time. The bass, drums, piano and guitar are the only instruments playing constantly. The lead sections answer each other with punches and phrases in a call-and-response manner, but not simultaneously.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Y'all's mileage may vary.
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Nathan Golub · From: Durham, NC

There's a nice pocket on 10 - 9 - 8 that I use for a syncopated rhythm lick that's similar to something one might play on 6 string guitar. Kind of like this, in A:

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Thank you, Herb! Especially the comment about the â€œstrength of the rhythm sectionâ€.

Iâ€™m only going to add that sometimes it also depends on the quality of the arrangement. Five and six pieces can contribute to a groove if parts are worked out. And it is possible for steel to be involved. Unrehearsed players with no sense of dynamics canâ€™t be expected pull it off, though, and in that case I concur it is best to lay out of the mess until itâ€™s your turn to further clutter the air space.

Even in a small band, if somebody else is dealing chords, Iâ€™m out except for the fills-solos-punches routine, especially if the groove is already stumbling along in survival mode.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Herb - I don't always play rhythm on steel. But with the band I mentionted above, it sort of became necessary on some of the stuff. This example sort of illustrates - this one is an old 26" scale Stringmaster in A6, but I do the same thing on pedal steel, usually a U12 so I can get a wide A6 tuning with A&B down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCeGdTfE0CU

There are 5 people playing concurrently here - steel, electric guitar, acoustic guitar, upright bass, and drums. It's almost all live in the studio, with the exception of the harmony vocals and, I think, the lead guitar solo and maybe some of his fills. The electric guitar player, Steve, and I always try to stay out of each other's way. When I listen now, I can only barely detect that I'm playing most of the time, but I definitely was playing rhythm through the tune except while filling and soloing. If I just drop out of the 2&4 chucks, the bottom drops out when Steve is filling and soloing, which on this tune is most of the time. Sometimes roles are reversed and he backs while I fill.

This band, although playing a lot of old country music, has more of a rock and roll attitude. The rhythm guitar player here is a rocker. We all have played a lot of rockabilly, and rock of various periods. I am expected to do my bit to keep the pulse.

Of course, de gustibus non disputandum est.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Good post Herb.
In VT, I rarely have the luxury of playing in a full band.
In fact I play a trio regularly and a duo even on occasion.
The few large clubs with the attendance/money to support a five piece or more band are mostly rock/pop clubs. Economics dictate smaller bands. The first to go typically is the PSG then drums. I feel lucky to play out at all.
BTW, how's that Infinity treating you?
Love mine.

Andrew Goulet · Posted 13 Aug 2021 5:48 am

Been thinking about this lately as well.

I have those low D13 strings that I use to get Don Rich-style rhythm licks. Those usually come out when the guitar player takes a solo. The other most common I'll do is a staccato chop on the 2 and 4. Otherwise I try to avoid getting caught up in the moment and just doubling chords or something like that.

I guess the other thing that can happen with me is where I get into the Buck Owens mode where I'm just doing a chicken style solo with the volume pedal down behind the singer, although that always seems to work out better for Tom Brumley than it does for me. Smile

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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I use 4 picks (thumb and 3 fingers). When someone else is soloing or filling, I usually just chunk away at chords on the low strings with my volume pedal backed down. On country tunes I might do the boom-chick thing, or a Chuck Berry rhythm on old rock'n'roll. I never felt right just sitting there when I could be contributing to the groove.
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Pete Nicholls · From: Macon, Georgia, USA

Chris Scruggs · From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

There are a lot of pretty cool techniques for this. Especially useful in smaller bands.

I think it is important to consider that a lot of times band leaders donâ€™t want to hire a steel player because they think it is a lead instrument that only makes one sound of does one thing. Then they end up either not calling a steel player, weâ€™re calling a steel player and asking them to play utility on a bunch of other instruments, for the songs where they think the sound of steel guitar isnâ€™t appropriate for a particular style.

That approach of just plying straight ahead â€œobviousâ€ sounding â€œlead steelâ€ is fine if you are playing country shuffles or Western swing all night long, but itâ€™s nice to be able to find other spaces to fill for different types of music, traditional country included.

I learned a lot from Kayton Roberts about filling up space rhythmically. He inherited a couple of styles for when he would play behind Hank Snow from Snowâ€™ previous steel players, Joe Talbot and Jimmy Crawford. The Talbot lick he would use, was to use his pinky finger in place of a bar over the strings and he would get a banjo type sound out of that. The Jimmy Crawford lick would involve playing a rhythmic pattern on the low strings, if you were doing this with pedals you would use pedal eight and play out of the A7 chord voicing. He would also mute his strings up high and get castanet and clave type sounds which is really useful on songs that have a Latin beat. Any of these techniques work with or without a drummer in the group.

Also, just being comfortable with comping chords on your lower strings is very useful, you can hear Lloyd doing some rhythmic parts on the lower strings of the â€œPanther Hallâ€ Charlie Pride record. Often times these techniques are more useful live, but Harold Bradley told me that the instrument that sounds like vibraphone on Patsy Clineâ€˜s â€œCrazyâ€ is actually Howard White playing steel through an amp with the tremolo turned on.

So even beyond playing strictly rhythm parts, there are lots of creative ways to fill up space with the steel guitar beyond just the obvious lead sounds the instrument makes. Think this way in a band, and you were sure to get called back more. People who donâ€™t know the instrument well might think of it as being a one trick pony (I know to us steel players the instrument is limitless, but to the general population they usually associate it with just the crying E9 thing), when really if you think outside the box, there is so much the instrument can do both as far as playing obvious lead to tones, as well as subtle rhythm and atmospheric sounds.

~Chris Scruggs~

Glenn Demichele · From: (20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA

This is a very sensitive topic for me, and I am loving everybody's comments a lot! You are all right. Our band recently lost a rhythm guitar player (thankfully, and he didn't die or anything), so we're down to Drums, Bass, Guitar, steel, Vocal, and I'm somehow trying to step up to the plate. It's become all about taking steel out of its sonic pigeonhole. I played a gig last night, and listened to my personal tape today. I thought I was great when I was doing it, but then today I think a lot of it sucks when hearing it back. Last night a couple people said they enjoyed my steel playing - Ok fine, I'll take it. But then somebody also said that she really liked my keyboard playing. If she wasn't so clueless, that would have been the best compliment ever. I haven't totally mentally processed my tape yet, but my general feeling is that if I try to do rhythmic chord comping, it steps on what the (lead) guitar player is doing when he is comping. My time is good and everything, but its just that our rhythmic ideas don't line up. What seems to work on the tape is either half or whole note chord "beds", but without that steel "squeeze". The other thing that works is single note 8th notes on the rock stuff - anything really straight and predictable. I guess I'm realizing that "comping" an improvised rhythm pattern is actually kind of taking a solo, and if your other guitar player is also rhythm comping according to his concept, you have two guys soloing at once. I always kind of hated dixieland... I think for intense rhythmic comping to work, you have to work it out with the other players in your band that are trying (subconsciously or not) to do the same thing.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Sometimes if a guitar player is comping, I'll comp the same rhythmic figure with different chord inversions. If you can stay in time and communicate mentally, it makes a very solid groove.
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Glenn Demichele · From: (20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA

EXACTLY, but if weâ€™re both good but â€œrandomâ€, you get groove cancellation. If only I could remember this on the bandstand while filled with performance adrenalineâ€¦
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Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5. Both amazing guitars! Homemade buffer/overdrive with adjustable 700Hz "Fender" scoop., Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x TDA7294 80W class AB amps, or 2x BAM200 for stereo. TT12 and BW1501 each in its own closed back wedge. Also NV400 etc. etc...

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

This is a great topic! â€œGroove Cancellationâ€ is now a new phrase in my rehearsal lexicon ðŸ¤

A lot about cutting a groove depends on what kind of music weâ€™re playing, and even more obviously, for what kind of singer/soloist are we providing background. Regardless, I concur that once you go beyond 3 pieces in your rhythm section, it is good to either have pre-arranged parts or for the players to have excellent musical communication skills.

Maybe there is a time and a place in a song to fill up all the holes and frequency ranges with instrumentation, but most of the time somebody is being Elvis in the spotlight and heâ€™s usually got something vitally important to say and he wants his people to hear every word or note of it. Give em some sonic space.

For me personally, chunkin out Chuck Berry style or power chording or chinkin on the treble strings on 2 and 4 are not why I started playing steel, and I probably wonâ€™t make a serious pursuit of it. Especially when I can do that in my sleep and sound better on guitar, if thatâ€™s what the song needs.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

My opinion - comping is not about the instrument, it's about the musicians involved. I don't care what instruments are 'acting rhythm section players', they have to synch up or it's a disaster. Not all bassists synch up with drummers well, and when they don't, it's a long night. But the same goes for anybody on the 'rhythm farm' with them.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Great post Chris!

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

It was a great post, probably the most useful one here.

It is a complicated topic with lots of possible angles, but one simple thing I try to keep in mind when playing, especially when creating groove, is the James Brown attributed quote, â€œeverythingâ€™s a drum firstâ€.

Dave M - youâ€™re not the only one jonesing for some twang. Iâ€™d have to travel 70 miles to find the nearest trad country band. Itâ€™s all good though; it forces even a bottom feeder like me to expand the perceived limits of pedal steel, which I am enthusiastically pursuing and thoroughly enjoying.

Michael Sawyer · From: North Carolina, USA

I always play along,even if my volume is heeled ,so i can be where i need to when i need to come back in.I reckon i'm sorta simple minded.
But i do chord some,in hearing range;our band
needs the help at times.ðŸ˜‰

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