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Topic: The Perfect Tuning |
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 1:24 pm |
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OK... Obviously, there is no such thing as a “perfect tuningâ€. If there was, everyone would use it, and there wouldn’t be books, websites, and hundreds of forum posts about different tunings.
What I am interested in learning from this thread, is what different players consider to be essential features for their specific “perfect†(or as close as possible) tunings? There are already dozens of threads about specific tunings, so rather then creating another one, this thread should be about FEATURES, and not specific tunings.
For example, what I personally seek in a tuning, is major AND minor triad strums with easy to avoid extension notes, like 6ths, 7ths, M7ths, etc.
So, if at all possible, WITHOUT NAMING STRING NOTES, let’s hear what you consider essential to have in your version of a perfect tuning?
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 1:47 pm
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| For me, a tuning with a 6th in the middle is poifict -- with the 1st on the bottom string, and either a 3rd or a 5th on top. Generally, my 6-strings are tuned to C6 and my 7-strings are tuned to A6, both with an E on top. Strings skinny enough to make a higher note don't sound good to my old ears. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 2:12 pm
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| Jack Hanson wrote: |
| For me, a tuning with a 6th in the middle is poifict -- with the 1st on the bottom string, and either a 3rd or a 5th on top. Generally, my 6-strings are tuned to C6 and my 7-strings are tuned to A6, both with an E on top. Strings skinny enough to make a higher note don't sound good to my old ears. |
Thanks Jack.
What would you say your tunings give you, that you couldn’t get from some other tuning? Are there specific songs or types of music that would be more difficult to play? Do most of the songs you play include sixes, or minor 7 chords? |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 5:13 pm
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Depends on what I'm playing. On slide guitar, I normally tune vestapol E or D (1 5 1 3 5 1) or Robert Johnson style open A or G (5 1 5 1 3 5) - just pure triadic. But I can fret behind the slide, Sonny Landreth style, and that opens it up for me. But I don't know any way to do that on a lap/console steel without low-hanging strings and frets. I guess if you pull behind the strings, you can get raises in an inverse way to the Landreth lowering. I haven't found that too appealing. That's why I have pedal steels.
Guys like David Lindley handle this when working with those types of tunings in some situations. I think he basically omits clashing tones - e.g., when working with a minor passage, he omits the 3rd and focuses on 1 and 5. That's great for some things - I do it too, I'm hugely influenced by him - but that doesn't necessarily do it for me on some things. And I'm sure David is well versed in many, many tunings. And I doubt he does any of this because he doesn't want to deal with very disciplined picking of specific strings. In fact, I think his approach requires very careful picking discipline.
So on at least some of my nonpedal steels, I hafta have a 6th or b7th somewhere in the middle of the tuning. If the string gauge is appropriate for one of those, it's trivial to re-tune to the other, even in the middle of a song. Some stuff I play wants more than 2-note 6th chords or minors. Others want tritone/diminished chords. Without always having to slant. Yes, it requires that you learn how to avoid that string if you don't want it to sound. That goes with the turf of playing steel guitar in any form, IMO.
| Quote: |
| For example, what I personally seek in a tuning, is major AND minor triad strums with easy to avoid extension notes, like 6ths, 7ths, M7ths, etc. |
I think my last sentence says everything I can say. I don't think there's any easy way out of learning to discipline the picking hand to avoid certain strings, unless you want to avoid a lot of the interesting harmonies that steel excels at.
The other extreme of this is something like Leavitt tuning. Everything is available, but you hafta be very disciplined about exactly what strings you pick. Listen to Bill Hatcher sometime. He is great with that approach.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 23 Feb 2021 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2021 5:27 pm
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| A tuning that provides a variety of diatonic functions between two or more strings at every fret. 6th tunings get close, but I think Leavitt is the bomb. Plus, the major, minor, dominant, diminished, and augmented chords are all there. I only dinked around with Leavitt before starting on pedal steel, but I could definitely see lots of possibilities with it. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 5 Apr 2021 8:42 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| A tuning that provides a variety of diatonic functions between two or more strings at every fret. 6th tunings get close, but I think Leavitt is the bomb. Plus, the major, minor, dominant, diminished, and augmented chords are all there. I only dinked around with Leavitt before starting on pedal steel, but I could definitely see lots of possibilities with it. |
Thanks Fred. That’s the kind of answer I was interested in.
The diatonic tunings don’t work for me because I like to have strums available, preferably with four or more consecutive strings. Basically, if I have a major chord strum and a minor chord strum, I can find happiness. Some 7ths and other extended chords thrown in for good measure, and I’m on my way!
These days I’m liking a G9, laid out low to high in 1st inversion (plus a 5). G B D F A D.
R 1 3 5 7 9 1. Also a nice D minor chord on the highest 4 strings. 1 b3 5 1. On my 7 strings I added a reentrant G (1) on the 7th string, for g G B D F A D.
I also liked a 13th tuning on my 7 sting lap steels. 6 1 3 1 3 5 7 as major chord and
1 b3 5 b3 5 7 x as the minor chord (eGBGBDF)
What features do other people want for a “perfect†tuning?
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 9:39 am Another Attempt at
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In my quest for a tuning that gives me the things I look for, I'm experimenting with some D9 variations.
DADACE (Dsus9)
DF#ADACE (7-string)
These provide the three things that I like for blues jamming:
1) Major triad (no true major triad in 6 string version)
2) Dom7 chords
3) Minor triad |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 1:57 pm
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Alan, in case my use of the word “diatonic†caused some confusion, I meant it by this definition:
“involving only notes proper to the prevailing key without chromatic alteration.â€
C6 is a diatonic tuning, for example, involving only notes from the key of C. All of the tunings you have listed are diatonic. The term does get thrown around and conflubstergated a bit.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 27 Apr 2021 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 2:00 pm
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| C13 |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 2:38 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
Alan, in case my use of the word “diatonic†caused some confusion, I meant it by this definition:
“involving only notes proper to the prevailing key without chromatic alteration.â€
C6 is a diatonic tuning, for example, involving only notes from the key of C. All of the tunings you have listed are diatonic. The term does get thrown around and conflubstergated a bit. |
Thanks Fred. As a blues harmonica player, I am VERY familiar with the word. But your explanation may be helpful to those players with less familiarity. I suspect that many tunings will end up consisting of notes from a diatonic scale, simply by virtue of being fractions of a complete scale. One might argue that G9 tuning is NOT diatonic, even though it contains only notes from the C major scale. However, if we count the chord root as the scale root, the “F†would have to be an “F#†to be diatonic.
Something I’ve learned about steel guitar players is that the vast majority of them are very knowledgeable about the theory behind their music. Strangely (or not) it amazes me how many (armpit) guitar players seem clueless about music theory—simply memorizing chords, tabs, and licks.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 2:52 pm
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| Jean-Sebastien Gauthier wrote: |
| C13 |
Hi Jean-Sebastien, I understand that you believe that C13 is your “perfect tuningâ€, but what I’d like people to share in this thread is WHY their tuning is perfect for them, or what features of a tuning make it perfect for them. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2021 4:33 pm
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| Quote: |
| One might argue that G9 tuning is NOT diatonic, even though it contains only notes from the C major scale. However, if we count the chord root as the scale root, the “F†would have to be an “F#†to be diatonic. |
Right! Diatonic to what key? That’s what I mean - the word gets tossed around. |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 7:09 am
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Without spelling out a particular tuning (though it likely would come as no surprise given my teacher and influences)...here's why it is my "perfect" tuning. Split tunings like B11 offer a lot, but as I've progressed and use slants more and more often, the ability to get 9th chords with a straight bar is less critical to me. With my 6th tuning, I can get them with a split bar slant on 1-2-4 and a two fret slant on 2-3-5.
A low flatted 7th just works for the music I play, too. It stays out of the way. Some of the tunings like E13 (in all its incarnations) I find completely unplayable as you have to be really disciplined to avoid certain strings in the middle of your range. I guess it would just take practice. But I like the low b7 because it makes the tuning less like a true 13th tuning, and more like a comfortable plain 6th tuning...with an otherwise-easily-avoided b7 string on for instant 7th and 13th chords.
Other modest advantages of my tuning...its prevalence, which means string sets and instruction materials abound. Also, there are a ton of other popular tunings that are just a few key-turns away from this tuning.
But really, the thing I realize is that what makes it "perfect" for me is not its attributes so much as the fact that I've put in the work on this tuning (as compared to other tunings) to where I know it and it feels natural. Lots of people will have different "perfect" tunings that may have little basis in objective qualities or innate superiority of the tuning. Sebastian Mueller makes high bass open A sound like the Tuning To Beat All Tunings, but when I start playing on 1-3-5-1-3-5 I'm completely hamstrung (never realized how helpful that extra string in between 5 and 1 was for melodic playing...feels like a huge gap!) and just sound like an entry level dobro-ist. 
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Apr 2021 7:44 am
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A perfect tuning to recreate music that has already been composed and played by others or a tuning to create new music on, that is the question. Steel guitarists often go through the process of learning multiple tunings, each of which seems like the perfect tuning at the time for specific purposes, but ultimately looks deeper to changes or tweaks to achieve individual sounds. At least that’s how I see it.
I find a C6 tuning to be the perfect tuning because it is so easily tweakable. I have numerous tweaks that I keep to myself because they are my sounds, but this tuning, whether 6,7 or 8 strings is so easily adaptable that it makes it the perfect tuning IMO for improvisation. Triad tunings like A or G are great too, but for chromaticism across strings they are not.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 29 Apr 2021 7:38 pm
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On a 6-string, my objective is the following full triads and 7 chords being available:
major
minor
diminished
augmented
major 7
dominant 7
minor 7
I can get all of these with CEGBDF (the aug is obtained with a slant on the first 3 strings - for example, B D F with slant produces B D# Fð„ª). |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Apr 2021 7:52 pm
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| Cappone dAngelo wrote: |
On a 6-string, my objective is the following full triads and 7 chords being available:
major
minor
diminished
augmented
major 7
dominant 7
minor 7
I can get all of these with CEGBDF (the aug is obtained with a slant on the first 3 strings - for example, B D F with slant produces B D# Fð„ª). |
That's a good goal, the only problem I see with it is that you only have one inversion of each triad. At least with C6, you have more than 3 inversions of a minor and major triad just in one position. Raise the 6th string to C# for C6/A7 and a whole other world opens up.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 29 Apr 2021 9:02 pm
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| Cappone dAngelo wrote: |
On a 6-string, my objective is the following full triads and 7 chords being available:
major
minor
diminished
augmented
major 7
dominant 7
minor 7
I can get all of these with CEGBDF (the aug is obtained with a slant on the first 3 strings - for example, B D F with slant produces B D# Fð„ª). |
I like that. There are a ton of possibilities in there. With the G root, you have G, G6, G7, G13. C root you have C, Cmaj7, Cmaj9. E root for Em, Em7. B root for Bdim. You also have your 1 & 5 on the same fret (C to G). And, nearly all of those chords are available in first inversion on consecutive strings. Pretty neat!
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 30 Apr 2021 3:40 pm
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Cappone dAngelo wrote: |
On a 6-string, my objective is the following full triads and 7 chords being available:
major
minor
diminished
augmented
major 7
dominant 7
minor 7
I can get all of these with CEGBDF (the aug is obtained with a slant on the first 3 strings - for example, B D F with slant produces B D# Fð„ª). |
That's a good goal, the only problem I see with it is that you only have one inversion of each triad. At least with C6, you have more than 3 inversions of a minor and major triad just in one position. Raise the 6th string to C# for C6/A7 and a whole other world opens up. |
Thanks! Agreed re limited voicings of the triads being available. I currently have one instrument in the above tuning and one in C6, and it was starting to learn C6 that led me to exploring such other tunings. I'm a beginner so still learning the possibilities of C6 (or of any steel playing, for that matter!), so I need to dig deeper into the capabilities of C6. For example, it was a while before I realized that I could do split slants, which certainly opened up more possibilities for me!
Regarding "raise the 6th string to C#" I may give that a try, as it may address what I was experiencing on C6 - there are tons of voicings/inversions readily available for major and minor, but when I was venturing into diminished or some extended dominant chords I was having a difficult time finding options. Also, part of the challenge was that I was trying to play 3 or even 4 note solo voicings - in an ensemble it would be less of an issue since I can, for example, easily find on C6 any 2-note voicings (and their resolution) that I would need. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 5 May 2021 3:30 pm Re: Another Attempt at
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| Allan Revich wrote: |
In my quest for a tuning that gives me the things I look for, I'm experimenting with some D9 variations.
DADACE (Dsus9)
DF#ADACE (7-string)
These provide the three things that I like for blues jamming:
1) Major triad (no true major triad in 6 string version)
2) Dom7 chords
3) Minor triad |
Sometimes I wonder what I must have been thinking...
While the quoted tunings “worked†they were weirder than necessary to get the desired results.
Modified to a basic D9:
ADF#ACE
DADF#ACE (7-string)
Which of course involves only a couple tweaks to standard Open D. |
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Mike Ormsby
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 12 May 2021 9:38 pm
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Thanks, glad to know that you found it useful!
Allan/Papa Dafoe
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – G B D G B D
7 String | G6 – e G B D G B D (re-entrant)
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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