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Topic: Vibrato Fishtailing |
Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 2:58 am |
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Seems vibrato techniques vary. How "standard" is the Newman fishtail (or rear flopping) of the bar when applying vibrato?
Only way I can seem to do it, is to trap the front nose of the bar between the tips of my middle and index fingers. My index finger ends up being pretty far to the right, rather than directly on top of the bar. Is this correct? I'm attempting not to touch the bar with my thumb so that it doesn't interfere with the flopping or fishtailing. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 5:07 am
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I've never heard of such a technique. 
Erv |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 27 May 2020 9:08 am
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In my classes with Jeff, he taught bar vibrato use as rolling the bar back and forth slightly and gently as opposed to sliding or wiggling it.
After you pick the note, let it sustain by gently rolling the bar slightly, slowly and gently as described above.
Of course there might be some times you may want to model Speedy West or other aggressive techniques, but for ballads and most other work, I think the slow, gentle roll works. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 9:25 am
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Jerry,
Yes, that's the only techniques I've ever heard of, either sliding the bar or rolling it.
Erv |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 27 May 2020 11:21 am
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"Fish tailing" is a poor technique, one where you are wobbling the bar (not keeping it parallel to the frets) while you're moving it back an forth. I use a rolling motion for slow vibratos, and a sliding motion for the very fast vibratos (which is sometimes "bar shiver"). But at all times, it's imperative to keep the bar parallel to the frets when doing a vibrato, or when you're sliding from one fret to another. 
I don't think that Jeff, or any other pro, would teach "fishtailing" as a proper technique. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 12:31 pm
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I've seen the video in question and can clear up confusion.
Newman was not recommending letting the butt of the bar fishtail when doing a rolling-type vibrato.
What he was doing was trying to teach something that is difficult to communicate: where, exactly, are the pressure points when holding a bar? Specifically, how much pressure should you use to squeeze the sides of the bar with thumb and middle finger? Answer: almost none.
He was trying to prove a point that most of the pressure in bar control and vibrato comes from the index finger on top of the bar, and middle finger a little off to the side of the top. And even more specifically, pressure is at the tip of the bar rather than the butt.
Meanwhile, the thumb and base of the finger along the other side of the bar should be doing little other than serving as 'keepers' to guide that bar and keep it parallel. No need to really squeeze the sides with any significant pressure. "Don't squeeze the sides because that interferes with a rolling vibrato" was what he was trying to teach in this segment of the video.
He demonstrated this by momentarily removing those 'keeper' fingers and moving the bar around using only pressure of two fingers on the tip of the bar. He slid around to show that the pressure and control mostly came from the tip, the "business end" of the bar. Meanwhile, the tail of the bar was fishtailing wildly all over the place -- but it didn't matter, because the strings he was playing were under the tip. It was a good demonstration that illustrated more than one aspect of bar control...
Lesson learned, finger pressure is more on the top, not the sides. And keep the tip over the strings being played, applying the downward pressure there, not on the butt. But after that stunt, he should have also made a point of saying you'll want to always keep those fingers along the side to keep the bar parallel to the fret at all times. Just don't bear down and squeeze because it not only isn't necassary, it actively interferes with rolling the bar. |
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Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 28 May 2020 1:17 am
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Ok, thanks. I'll watch that video again (Jeffran College PSG Techniques Part 1).
He wasn't describing the rolling technique, but rather a sliding vibrato. If you have the lesson, the flopping is described around minute 21:00 of the DVD. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 May 2020 11:16 am
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| Darren Mortillaro wrote: |
| Ok, thanks. I'll watch that video again (Jeffran College PSG Techniques Part 1). |
Ah... I don't think the video I saw was the "Techniques" one since I don't have that one. But the bar-control demonstration of fishtailing to show where the finger pressure points are was definitely in it. It made a strong impression that's stuck with me here almost 20 years down the road. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 May 2020 12:48 pm
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Here's one of Jeff's more detailed clips...no "fishtailing" here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY53zX4D9ik
This discussion is why I always recommend that people not just get their learning from one source, or just one player. You need multiple inputs, multiple techniques, and multiple viewpoints on every aspect of playing.  |
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Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 28 May 2020 11:54 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Here's one of Jeff's more detailed clips...no "fishtailing" here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY53zX4D9ik
This discussion is why I always recommend that people not just get their learning from one source, or just one player. You need multiple inputs, multiple techniques, and multiple viewpoints on every aspect of playing. |
If you look carefully, he is actually letting it "flop" in parts. Notice this when his thumb loses contact with the bar.
I could upload the lesson to youtube, but some people might freak out. Let me know if you want me to put it on youtube.
In any case, the New Orleans video was pretty informative on how he did it. There's a mix of rolling the bar, but also flopping it. Very interesting... Thanks. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 May 2020 6:15 am
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| Darren Mortillaro wrote: |
If you look carefully, he is actually letting it "flop" in parts. Notice this when his thumb loses contact with the bar.
I could upload the lesson to youtube, but some people might freak out. Let me know if you want me to put it on youtube.
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Darren, I have to apologize! I went back and reviewed the video on a big screen and there are indeed a few places where the technique you describe is evident; your observations are astute. That he specifically mentioned this technique in a teaching video rules out the idea that it was merely an affectation, as opposed to a useful technique. However, in all deference to Jeff's well-known ability and reputation, I still don't see a good reason to use such a technique, and I don't see any advantage it might have over more common vibrato techniques used by most other pro players.
I'm just a hacker, but I'd be interested to see what other pro players have to say about this! |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 29 May 2020 1:05 pm
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| Darren Mortillaro wrote: |
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Here's one of Jeff's more detailed clips...no "fishtailing" here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY53zX4D9ik
This discussion is why I always recommend that people not just get their learning from one source, or just one player. You need multiple inputs, multiple techniques, and multiple viewpoints on every aspect of playing. |
If you look carefully, he is actually letting it "flop" in parts. Notice this when his thumb loses contact with the bar.
There's a mix of rolling the bar, but also flopping it. Very interesting... Thanks. |
What I hear throughout Jeff's very unique and lovely rendition of this song is impeccable intonation and excellent bar control.
Jeff uses his left hand middle finger to keep the bar precisely parallel to the frets 99.9% of the time, and uses his left hand thumb to keep the bar in place against his thumb--but the thumb pressure needs to be very light to allow the rolling vibrato that Jeff is doing. This is standard tone-bar technique, done masterfully.
There are two unusual bar movements that I observed:
1. The only place that I can see an unusual bar movement that might look like "fishtailing" is at 1:12 to 1:15, and I believe Jeff is actually doing a tricky bar slant there--the intonation sounds very clean to my ears, while "fishtailing" creates bad intonation.
2. The other unusual bar movement I saw Jeff do with his bar is lift up the back of it and use just the nose to play only one string simultaneously with an open string, (for example at 3:42); and once again he carries out this tricky maneuver very nicely. And makes it look so easy, too! 
I agree with Donny, it's a good idea to watch a lot of different players from different angles; because sometimes it is hard to see exactly what they are doing.
However, it's the results that count, and excellent intonation usually results from excellent technique.
- Dave |
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Norman Evans
From:
Tennessee
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Larry Ball
From:
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 30 May 2020 7:55 am
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Look at Paul Franklin..his technique is a great example of bar control. All effected strings are receiving the application at the same time. “No†so called fishtailing of the bar at the lower end. Nice gentle roll as the note is sustaining. I have also seen terrible examples of the vibrato with the players mechanically applying the sliding motion. Vibrato is meant to put emotion into the note which them enhances the song.
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Franklin
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Posted 30 May 2020 10:34 am
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Most of you know that Jeff, Hal, Hughey, and I played a gang set many times at Scotty's...We were all blunt with each other. We all respected each other so much that one summer we would gather at a roller rink when it was shut down so we could play. We picked at each other shared ideas and had a great time. At a rehearsal with the three of us, Jeff mentioned we all do that move in one of the arrangements...Let's just say Jeff stopped playing and teaching that move...
There is a uni-vibe chorusing effect we can do with the bar which is far more exaggerated than what Jeff did here. Greg L, Dan Dugmore, I and a few others use it in the Americana world.. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 30 May 2020 1:09 pm
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Paul, I wonder if your last comment was about not blocking behind the bar at the harmonic nodes and picking behind the bar?
I watched Greg L. do that several times on a Frisell gig where I got to sit twenty odd feet from the band in a 110 seat venue (!!!).
He usually did it with his big glass bar. It is a wonderful, ethereal sound that requires absolutely perfect bar control to sound good.
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Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 30 May 2020 3:25 pm
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Here's the clip directly from the horse's mouth. Curious what you guys think. I find this technique pretty awkward, however most unfamiliar things are.
Since PSG is a new instrument, I'm sure we haven't even scratched the surface on what this instrument is capable of doing. Think about how many hundreds of years of development went into the piano or violin. We're still learning what is possible on a six string guitar today.
https://youtu.be/8OOmMTlhWbQ |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 May 2020 4:07 pm
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| Franklin wrote: |
...We picked at each other shared ideas and had a great time. At a rehearsal with the three of us, Jeff mentioned we all do that move in one of the arrangements...Let's just say Jeff stopped playing and teaching that move...
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Well, all I gotta say is that if John Hughey, Hal Rugg, and Paul Franklin, suggested that I not do something, I'd probably listen to them, too! 
I'll admit the move looks "artsy" and visually appealing, but I don't really hear any practical or sonic advantage when Jeff uses it.
(If I tried that move, sooner or later, I'd probably wind up dropping the bar.) |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 31 May 2020 6:22 am
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I liked the move that Buddy Emmons did when he would twirl his bar on the strings.
Erv |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 May 2020 11:58 am
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| I saw him do that once and he dropped the bar between the necks. He just laughed and picked it up...real fast! I love the way Buddy always laughed when things went wrong. |
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Franklin
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Posted 1 Jun 2020 1:48 pm
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This is a vibrato lesson from the undisputed master of the left hand. When Jerry performed at the St. Louis convention every pedal master from Buddy, Hughey, all the way down to me was lined up on the front row...Jerry's touch and intonation defined how we pedal steel guitarists should play vibrato. And he perfected the art way back in the 40's... In this video Jerry calls the fishtailing thing "dovetailing the bar"
The Vibrato Lesson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1yUe8L7mTQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1195
These are a couple of clips showcasing why we listened to Jerry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXEP5DFDMM4&list=PL65DC088DBCA97E2C
The slanting is unbelievable here. You have to hold on to the bottom of the bar for this type of mastery...It can't fishtail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM7Vx2fm_Ig
Last edited by Franklin on 1 Jun 2020 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Franklin
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 1 Jun 2020 8:38 pm
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"This is genius"
especially the very last note(s) |
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Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 3 Jun 2020 1:51 am
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Sounds like you're a big Jerry Byrd fan. Did you by chance read his book? I'm curious if he was a veteran. Do you know? I have a feeling a lot of WWII sailors got into Hawaiian music based on where they were stationed. |
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Garry Vanderlinde
From:
CA
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Posted 3 Jun 2020 9:59 pm Byrd Is God
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Thanks for two amazing videos on vibrato from Jeff Newman and Jerry Byrd. They left me with a lot to think/practice about.
Jeff seems to be endorsing the "fish tailing" and Jerry condemns it.
I think it means that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
It really hit home when Jerry said: "vibrato should be natural... this bar was a pencil and you were erasing a spot off of that string." I think I could do that.
And Jeff saying that fret markers lie! Ain't it true?!
One of the most impressive vibratos I've experienced lately is from this amazing Hawaiian player Jeff Au Hoy seen here at HSGA Convention in Ft. Collins,Co. a couple of years ago. He follows his own rules of fish-tailing and wide vibrato. Another way to "skin the cat".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv4XrNr9AnI&t=1212s |
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