Modification makes Low E/A Bar-able

C. Christofferson · Posted 7 Mar 2006 11:56 am

An experiment that had positive results - Visit www.geocities.com/steelergy19
for details. Sorry if any pages glitch due to exceeded data tr. Tech discussion please...!
p.s. i don't have net at home, but access most days.

Let me add this link which came up later in the discussion but I'll put it here also http://www.geocities.com/steelpicks19/keyless
c.

[This message was edited by C. Christofferson on 18 August 2006 at 01:48 PM.]

Peter · Posted 7 Mar 2006 12:40 pm

Wow!

Nice thinking!

[This message was edited by Peter on 11 March 2006 at 03:58 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

If all you wanted to do was to be able to play E and A at the first fret so you could have bar use there then it would have been a LOT easier just to tune the guitar down to Eb9, substitute string guages for any thing that did not feel right and then just play. You would only have to think up one fret. If the band was in E, you would just play as if you were in F. Your harmonics would still be the same and the guitar would still fit in the case.

I do like the Alaska pics shown on the site.

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 07 March 2006 at 12:50 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Why not just tune the steel down 1/2 tone if it bothers you that much? (But really, it shouldn't!)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, never try to fix a "problem" by creating several more.

At least you didn't mess up a valuable guitar.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 07 March 2006 at 06:18 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 7 Mar 2006 2:41 pm

Interesting approach. Extending the neck and using the same gauge strings gives you a little better sustain than simply tuning down and going to thicker gauge strings. This is the reason Fender once made the Stringmaster in 3 different neck lengths. Also, your approach of simply adding another fret to the fretboard keeps the fret markers at their familiar positions in regard to chords and keys, with the exception that the chord open at the nut is now Eb or Ab. If you did this for a doubleneck, I don't see why you wouldn't want to do it for both necks. The rationale for wanting to bar the root fret in the keys of E or A on E9 also applies to barring the key of C on C6. I wonder if this is Reece Anderson's rationale for tuning his universal to Eb9/Bb6?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 March 2006 at 02:45 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I use the 9th string as the root when I want to bar a low E chord.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I like the knee levers in photo 3.

C. Christofferson · Posted 8 Mar 2006 10:43 am

Dear Peter in Africa, Also nice thinking.

C. Christofferson · Posted 8 Mar 2006 10:56 am

Dear Charlie in Texas, Thanks for the compliment. The 'F' LKL is a dummy pedal connected to the LKR 'Eb' with a pull wire (the guitar came only with the Eb lever) so when I want to practice chords using the 'F' a spring is attached to the Eb holding it in it's 'engaged' position then tune the E strings back up to E, then by pushing the F it pulls the Eb back to it's original position thus raising the E's to F.
Hey, I'm not proud of it - but it works.
The RKL is the maj7 to dom7 i was able to add from scratch.

C. Christofferson · Posted 8 Mar 2006 10:59 am

Dear Bobbie, I will investigate that further when I get home.

C. Christofferson · Posted 8 Mar 2006 11:05 am

Dear David in Pennsylvania, That's good stuff. Thanks for information that I didn't know!

C. Christofferson · Posted 8 Mar 2006 11:11 am

Dear Donny in Md., Appreciate your feedback.

C. Christofferson · Posted 8 Mar 2006 11:18 am

Dear Bill in Atlanta, Of course you're right - but since I'm still a novice then the less extra thinking I have to do the better. P.S. It wasn't at all a Hard thing to do - it was a labor of love.

Curt Langston · Posted 8 Mar 2006 11:23 am

Increasing the scale length on a keyed guitar, will theorectically increase string breakage.

richard burton · From: Britain

WoW !!

That is the lateral thinking of lateral thinking !!

It's easier and quicker to tune the steel down to D9.

A full tone (two frets) is easier to remember on the bandstand than a semitone, IMHO.

ie if the song is in G, you are in A, if the tune is in F, you are in G, and so on.

Speaking from experience.

Pat Kelly · From: Wentworthville, New South Wales, Australia

If purely looking to be able to bar the E position, then perhaps the full semitone lower is not required. At that end of the neck there would be enough room for the bar with a minimal lengthening of the neck. Maybe enabling the prototype to get into the case. Otherwise you are really just lengthening the neck and lowering you tuning which is probably not such a break through as might appear.

Playing in E: loss of common open unison combinations and loss of "hammer on."

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

One of the forumites e-mailed me and suggested my comment earlier was a little harsh, so I'll elaborate a little. Along with the disadvantages already mentioned (more than a few), there's the matter of the keys sticking out over the end of the guitar. While this might not bother a "bedroom player", it does pose hazards when moving and transporting the guitar. Aside from the strings themselves, the keys are the most fragile part of a steel guitar. As many players can attest, even keys in the normal position (within the perimeter of the body) are sometimes bent or broken. Sticking them off the end of the guitar merely enhances the chances this might happen.

More importantly, however, is the affect the changes Chris made will have on him! After playing that modified steel for awhile, all others (which aren't so modified) will feel quite strange. Whenever he gets a chance to play an ordinary guitar, his mind will constantly be occupied with the differences. Also, anyone who would play his guitar would be similarly disoriented, as most players use visual cues more than you might think.

I'm going to guess that Chris is a new player, probably in his 20's or 30's, and that he has also played straight guitar. I give him credit for experimenting and trying something completely different, but I feel that while his changes allow him to get barred A's and E's (which I feel, are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things), it will possibly slow his learning curve and interfere with the process of his trying or enjoying other's instruments, and having them try or enjoy his.

I guess we'll have to give him an "E" for his efforts, though!

Glenn Taylor · From: Denver, CO, USA

An interesting modification. Like Mr. Burton, I would have recommended tuning down to D (as I have done for several years), but what the heck, there's more than one way to skin an MSA and that's one of them. Curmudgeons abound but I say play on.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

low barred positions for E chord


F#___2___________________________


D#___2b__________________________


G#___________3___________________


E ___________3#__________________


B ___________3##_____2bb_________


G#___2#______3_______2bb_________


F#___2______________(2)__________


E ___________3#__________________


D ___2_______________2___________


B ___________3##_____2bb_________








low barred positions for A chord


F#_______________________________


D#___2b__________________________


G#__________________1____________


E __________________1b___________


B ___2______3b______1#___________


G#__________________1____________


F#___2#_____3____________________


E __________________1b___________


D ___2______3b___________________


B ___2______3b______1#___________





# = raise


b = lower

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

David Doggett · Posted 8 Mar 2006 8:01 pm

Curt, lengthening the neck increases tension and breakage if you keep the same string gauge and tighten up to maintain the same pitch. But Cris is lengthening the neck, but letting the pitch (open at the nut) drop appropriately a half-step. So he can keep the same string gauge and have the same tension, but with a lower pitch at the nut. If on the other hand, you lengthen the neck, but keep the same pitch, you need to go to a lighter string gauge to maintain the same tension. The lighter string gauge in either case improves sustain. A long thin string tuned to the same pitch and tension as a short thick string will have richer overtones and better sustain. Pick a barred note on any string, then drop to a lower thicker string and move the bar up the neck appropriately to play the same pitch - which has the better tone and sustain? That is why concert grand pianos stretch out to 9 feet. Smaller cheaper pianos play the same notes, but on shorter thicker strings with duller tone and less sustain.

Donny's points about the keyhead sticking out are valid, and it would be better to have a custom body with the appropriate extra length. But the unique thing about Chris adding a -1 fret below the usual nut position means he will be at home on other guitars, because the fret markers will be the same chords and notes he is use to. But of course on any other guitar he wont be able to play the same way at the nut. Yeah its nonconformist. But if the people who developed our current instruments hadn't done a lot of experimenting, we'd all still be playing 6-string lap steels. In fact it seems like a lot of top pros have always had their unique setups. They only become standards when all us lesser players copy them. Of course we are all a lot more likely to copy and standardize the innovations of top pros than of novices. That seems to make sense, but who know what we might be missing?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 08 March 2006 at 08:18 PM.]

C. Christofferson · Posted 9 Mar 2006 10:48 am

A couple of thoughts from yesterday before reading todays mail - not that it matters but i rewrote the 'conclusion' page of the demo. Obviously it was worded obscurely. Right-on Bill, Alaska picks it is. i believe the metal ones are 'open end' picks. Bobby, sorry i accidentally pushed a wrong button on your software (but I'm glad i found out what it does!
Another possible solution to this dilemma that I wouldn't wish on anyone - strollinto practice and politely inform the band that from now on they'll have to play every song a half step lower than they're used to !
Don't get me wrong, i love the instrument no matter what form it comes in - really at this point would gladly trade in this creaky old vessel for one of your nice pro models in a heartbeat. Any takers..?

C. Christofferson · Posted 9 Mar 2006 10:51 am

Dear Richard,
Now we're getting somewhere! (not that we weren't before)

C. Christofferson · Posted 9 Mar 2006 10:56 am

Dear Pat,
That's brilliant. also, that's kinda what i was thinking about in my proposal, that is, a double neck with one e9 neck and one eb9 neck so you could have the 'best' of both worlds.

C. Christofferson · Posted 9 Mar 2006 11:02 am

Message erased thank you

[This message was edited by C. Christofferson on 11 March 2006 at 12:37 PM.]

C. Christofferson · Posted 9 Mar 2006 11:11 am

To Donny,
No offence taken, in fact I walked away yesterday feeling that i had been offensive to you. I don't feel though that disorientation would get in the way here. No more tham moving from one drumset to another. If you're just open to play on what's there, then professionalism should take it from there. But your points are well taken. P.S. i'm 49 .

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