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Topic: Do I want a 15" speaker for nonpedal? |
Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 24 Aug 2019 10:40 am |
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OK, while technically I have a Fender 400, I'm principally a non-pedal player. Stuff I play falls mainly into the styles of Jules Ah See, Barney Isaacs, Andy Iona, and jazz standards (but mostly melodic, not the funky cool chordal stuff some of y'all are doing). I play 8 string, mostly Stringmaster, Magnatone, and a Clinesmith frypan.
One of the things I love is with my main tunings (C13 with a low .070 C and B11 with a similar low B), with the right rig I get a nice full deep tone from those low strings (I have to use them somewhat judiciously and not overuse the effect). It has a very Hawaii Calls sound, which, no surprise, I love.
Now my amp situation is this...I generally run into a 5 watt cheap Bugera dialed dark (basically an EL84 pushing a small 8" speaker), and sometimes when I want more volume or fullness, I'll biamp with my GenzBenz bass amp (150watts into a neodymium 10"), and that gives you the nice tone of the amp with a touch of reverb but fills out the low end. It's kind of a silly rig but it works for low level volumes I usually play at, and it's what I had on hand when I started this hobby. I also have a 30 watt Crate Vintage Club (poor man's AC30) but I've found I don't love its tone, just a bit brighter than I prefer, with a high noise floor.
So my question is this, when/if I get a new amp, since so many steel guitarists swear by 15" speakers, should I be looking into that? EG Quilter Steelaire, or other such rigs. Seems like that would kick out a whole lotta bass depth from the bass strings which I would love. I've gathered generally that the 15" speakers are more sought after by country or pedal players, and lap steel / Hawaiian players tend to be more all over the map on amplification. Anybody playing similar styles and would offer recommendations?
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2019 12:01 pm
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In my opinion, it all depends on how loud you need to be, and your budget.
Seems to me you're chasing a vintage sound with vintage instruments -- or in the case of your Clinesmith (lucky guy) a modern replica -- using relatively modern amps.
Among the most popular amps for steel players back in the day were tube amps with tube rectifiers and often times 15" speakers, ala vintage Fender Pros and Bassmans, etc. When the Bassman switched to four tens, steelers hit the jackpot. (And so did most everyone else, with the exception of -- ironically -- bass players.) So speaker size is only part of the equation.
Vintage tube amps, as wonderful as they are, are often costly to purchase and costly to maintain. There are dozens of builders who specialize in boutique amps based on the classic circuits. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for.
If you opt to purchase a new 15" speaker, keep in mind it will take some time to break it in. I'd advise keeping an eye on the ads here, and trying to obtain a speaker that's been used but not abused. That's what I did with the BW 1501-4 I installed in my old PV LTD 400 (after the factory JBL blew), and I could hardly be happier with its sound. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 24 Aug 2019 10:43 pm
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In my opinion you do not need a 15†speaker. The speaker size doesn’t have much to do frequency range anymore. Try some different amps out that are in your budget and buy the one that makes you happy when you play through it. Don’t worry about it being a steel amp or bass amp or any of that.
_________________
Bob |
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Jeremy DeHart
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2019 6:34 am
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| Hey Nic neat thread here. Seems like you and I are similar in our tunings/guitars and preferences. I play a single neck stringmaster and I’ve been messing with a lot of different amps. I love the sound and idea of the 6- string C6 through a small magnatone with a 10†speaker. It’s so compact and sweet. However with my C13 stringmaster I want something bigger and I come from the Surf Music genre to this endeavor so I have many amps/Speaker Cabs in this regard. I was about to switch out my Dual Showman and 2x15†cab to a single 15†cab with a tonering (made famous by Dick Dale). I’m going to start experimenting with this soon and I’ll definitely share my results. I had also heard a single 15†is the way to go, but I’m also a huge JB fan and he said a 2x12†combo fender twin with the treble on 0 is the way to go. Let’s experiment! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 25 Aug 2019 6:59 am
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I would say no. It is overkill and not practical sonically. 2x10 or 2x12 is a much better choice. I say this from experience; I used a 15†Altec and D130F for more than a year.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Jim Newberry
From:
Seattle, Upper Left America
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Posted 25 Aug 2019 7:35 am
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I built a 2x10 Fender tweed Super and have configured the chassis to be able to put in a 1x15 Pro cabinet. I used it as a Pro for some time, trying out 3 different speakers, then back to the 2x10 configuration. I have a problem with the 15†speakers being beamy (the trebles very aggressively beaming from the middle of the speaker) and the 2x10 configuration gives a more 3D swirl. Both setups work for the low E on an E13th tuning just fine. I don’t have a clear favorite. At home, 1x8, 1x10 vintage lap steel amps... 1x12s... So, do you “need†a 15 for your frequency range? I’d say no, but you might like it. How’s that for some clear advice?
_________________
"The Masher of Touch and Tone"
-1950 Fender Dual Pro 8
-1950's Fender Dual Pro 6
-Clinesmith D8
-Clinesmith 8-string Frypan
-Clinesmith Joaquin
-~1940 National New Yorker
-~1936 Rickenbacher B6
-Homebuilt Amps |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 25 Aug 2019 8:27 am
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Good advice so far. It's one of those things where I should just go try amps out, but the average shop is not likely to have steel-focused amps (like the Peaveys, Quilters, Fender twin custom 15, etc).
One of the things I know from my current rig...I'm not liable to need high wattage, I'm playing with at most a (quiet overall) jazz guitarist through a Fender Blues Jr, an upright bassist, occasional a vocalist...not playing against electric bass and drumset, so volume is pretty reasonable. Also, given that my dual amp setup right now has a mere 10" speaker in the bass amp, I obviously can get a decent bit of low end from a smaller speaker anyway.
"Don’t worry about it being a steel amp or bass amp or any of that."
Haha, I have had a few experiences recently with what are otherwise considered bottom of the barrel amps, just using them because they were at hand...a 15 watt Crate keyboard practice amp and a Rogue 50 watt solidstate bass amp....with my Clinesmith, I actually ended up thinking, this sounds better than it has a right to! 
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2019 9:26 am
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Dave Beaty at Telonics told me that for his NEO speakers, a 12" was fine for E9 pedal steel, but C6 would benefit from the 15"...so there is a difference way down low....at least for that line of speakers. So your low tuning might want a big speaker, depending on the specific speaker, maybe...
I've been using a Jupiter 12" ceramic 50watt model with my The Amp Milkman for lap steel...Jupiters are amazing (Tim at Milkman told me it is what he uses). Ive had Milkman amps with both 12" and 15" NEO speakers (pre-Telonics) for E9 pedal steel, and there wasn't any difference I could hear.
Conventional wisdom says that the larger the speaker (for similar designs?), the narrower the projected sound beam....
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Steven Paris
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 25 Aug 2019 10:49 am
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"Do I want a 15" speaker for nonpedal?"
Yes. The 15" JBL D-130F is the undisputed KING of all guitar speakers.
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Emmons & Peavey |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 5:23 am Re: Do I want a 15
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| Nic Neufeld wrote: |
I generally run into a 5 watt cheap Bugera dialed dark (basically an EL84 pushing a small 8" speaker),
I also have a 30 watt Crate Vintage Club (poor man's AC30) but I've found I don't love its tone,
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One suggestion would be to try out amps that are NOT EL84's which I like MUCH less than the typical "Fender" tubes like 6L6 and 6V6's.
EL84's just never have the "right" tone for the musical styles I like, including the Hawaiian stylists you mention.
I agree with those that suggest using a 15" speaker for that really fat bottom on your low strings; however, part of the sound you want may be the Fender tube sound, be it real tubes or modeling.
Last edited by David M Brown on 27 Aug 2019 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dan Yeago
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 5:53 am
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Michael Lewis had a wonderful old school guitar store here in the 1980's for a number of years. Besides being a fine guitarist, he got the pedal steel bug and became a good player before going to work for Fender. They made him a VP and was the driving force behind their steel amp, numerous other guitars and amps, Gretsch, and so on.
i recall a conversation with him about steel amps and he very much preferred the 15" speaker, which didn't lack anything on the highs, either. |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 10:33 am Re: Do I want a 15
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| David M Brown wrote: |
One suggestion would be to try out amps that are NOT EL84's which I like MUCH less than the typical "Fender" tubes like 6L6 and 6V6's.
EL84's just never have the "right" tone for the musical styles I like, including the Hawaiian stylists you mention. |
I have a Crate VC-5o8, which is also EL84-powered, and it sounds harsh and nasty to my ears for lap steel. (It's the second-best harp amp I've ever played, however.) I also have a couple EL84-powered Pro Juniors, that to my ears make decent lap steel amps. Perhaps my favorite small amp for lap steel is the Musicmaster Bass amp, which has 6V6s. The common feature among the Crate and the two Fenders is they all have only a single tone control, which is a feature I favor on a smallish lap steel amp. Stacking tone controls on a low-wattage tube amp is a noticeable (to me, at least) tone-suck. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2019 11:38 am
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The Matchless amps I used to play are EL-84-based and sound like angels singing, no matter what you played through them (DC-30 and Lightning)...I only switched because they seemed to get a lot heavier over the years...but that also is a whole different level of cost...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 15 Sep 2019 7:22 pm
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| I have been recently playing my lap through my Webb 614E and have come to actually like my NV 112 better. But just for the lap guitar. Much prefer the Webb for my Williams. |
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Brentley Dahmer
From:
Richmond, VA
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Posted 16 Sep 2019 12:10 pm
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Very interesting thread here.
Not too sure where to go right now with my own set up but I've got a single 15" cab on a modified '65 dual showman I might try after reading this. |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2019 5:13 pm
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| Jim Newberry wrote: |
| I have a problem with the 15†speakers being beamy (the trebles very aggressively beaming from the middle of the speaker) and the 2x10 configuration gives a more 3D swirl. |
I have a 1967 Fender Bassman head that I used to run thru an old closed back Fender 2x15 cabinet. I loved the sound, but a few time guys in the band a bit further away from the speaker than me would say it was about to take their heads off. I think it is what you are talking about.
Still in the right room/configuration, that rig would make the bones in my legs resonate with the growling awesome overdrive from that Bassman head. |
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Peter Jacobs
From:
Northern Virginia
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Posted 17 Sep 2019 3:20 am
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| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
| The Matchless amps I used to play are EL-84-based and sound like angels singing, no matter what you played through them |
I agree - it’s not just the tubes, it’s the circuit. My Goodsell Super 17 mk3 sounds almost like it has 6V6, or so people have said. It’s voiced somewhere between a tweed Deluxe and a Vox, but still has a ton of low end and no harshness.
Meanwhile, I keep getting this urge to rehouse my Blues Jr in a 2-10 cabinet (I have a Texas Heat in it now). I get the feeling that would sound huge, with a much wider soundstage. Plus the coupling effect would make 2 10s sound like a bigger speaker. Just a thought.
_________________
Peter
---------
www.splinterville.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@splinterville6278/videos |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 17 Sep 2019 1:08 pm
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I've been playing my CS through a Blues Junior lately (my guitarist's, just for convenience at practice). Not bad, but kind of similar to my problem with the Crate VC, kind of hard to tame the highs. I guess I'll just have to chuck a blanket over the amp at gigs, hah!
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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Nic Neufeld
From:
Kansas City, Missouri
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Posted 27 Sep 2019 12:52 pm
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Went to Guitar Center today...never do that kind of thing any more really. But I plugged into a variety of amps. Tubes, modelling, etc. A $1500 Twin, AC30, Princeton Reverb, a handful of others. None left me saying "this is great!". The vintage style tube amps were enormous, heavy, and expensive and the tone circuits weren't jiving with my guitar it felt like. And the Twin's reverb hissed like the devil.
What was surreal is after I put cheap and expensive, vintage and modern, tube and solidstate amps to the test and they all came up, well, OK, but not really beating out my current cheap rig in sound...I wandered over to the bass section on a whim, plugged into a (cheap) Fender Rumble with a 15", and what is wrong with me, but I love the sound of bass amps with my guitar it seems. If only they'd build in a reverb circuit!
So for now, I'm going to stick with my odd little biamp rig. The Bugera sounds nice enough and the bass amp adds lower depth. It does somewhat warn me off of vintage style tube amps. I love them for regular guitar (particularly the EL84 amps) but for steel, maybe not worth the size/weight/expense/reliability issues.
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me |
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John Limbach
From:
Billings, Montana, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2019 2:17 pm
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| Bass amps are 'da bomb for lap steel. My vintage Traynor YBA-1 Bassmaster head sounds great and you can go with any size speaker & cab that tickles your fancy. |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 6:36 am To go super big and high fidelity you need 2 -- 15,s
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If you don't mind carrying several parts of a rig to a gig, then I recommend the GD Walker Stereo Steel Amp with 2 --- 15" speakers.
All of the top pedal steel players owned and played through these stereo set ups along the way.
When Gerry 1st started I used to be a supplier of reconed JBLs for him.
My Amp is # 004 and has been trouble free and super huge sounding since the mid 1990's.
Teamed with a pair of custom coned - super 130,s this amp is beyond most other super steel amps.
For the average lap player looking to carry a small amp to jams and such, these are way too big and pretty much any little amp will do the trick.
For some one looking for a huge High Fidelity sound or is into serious recording it is hard to find a better over all rig.
These come up here for sale fairly often, and for some crazy reason they tend to go for 1/2 of their actual value.
It is my limited understanding that GD Walker is mostly retired now.
_________________
GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 9:37 am
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If 15†is good, maybe a 21†would be even better? : )
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Steven Pearce
From:
Port Orchard Washington, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 10:44 am
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On the right, 1980 Peavey TKO 80 Bass amp. 1x15.
On the left, ‘Heaven in a box’ Evans SE200. 1x15
Both for lap steel. And for my 2 cents... forget buying gear for
a particular style.
1. Get a setup that sounds good, forget the style, just something that when
you play a few chords, you smile.
2. Listen and play along to everything, ALL STYLES,
you won’t ever become Jules Ah See, but buddy, you will be able to sit down
and play everything from Born To Be Wild, (Did that playing rythym at an art gallery Friday
something or other) Bremerton, WA. 2014
Become familiar with, and find the amazing beauty of being able to think
outside the Style Box, sit in on a Sunday night jam, with people you never met, and make
music that gives all of the people a huge grin and an amazing musical experience.
â˜‘ï¸ BOTTOM LINE😠GO WITH THE 15
_________________
http://www.fentonstwang.com/fr_home.cfm |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2019 5:36 pm
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| Tom Wolverton wrote: |
If 15†is good, maybe a 21†would be even better? : )
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For organ bass pedal! |
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Mark Helm
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2019 10:16 am Ear Candy!
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Well, guys...
After a bunch of experimentation with various tube combos, I have finally settled on a rig that, for the $ (under $500, total), has no business sounding this sweet. The tone is rich, warm, and full no matter where you are in the room, and is equally pleasing at low and high volumes. Great for practice, and gigs.
The amp I'm using is the mini Vox MV-50 (Clean), which goes for a ridiculously inexpensive $219, shipped. This amp features a tube analog pre-amp circuit + a class D power amp. It was suggested by a Forum member and I'm really thankful for the tip!
I've paired this with a hand-made 2 x 6.5" tweed cabinet made by a tiny outfit in Indiana called Ear Candy. It's absolutely stunning both in sound AND pricing. It's basically a boutique product at mass-market prices. The cab cost me $250, shipped. Here's the specs Ear Candy sent me:
All ¾†AAA White Birch Wood Cabinet
All 1/2″ Maple front and back
Pat pending Twin ported baffle
No MDF or particle board anywhere
All steel hardware
Steel input jack plate with 1/4″ Neutrik input
Point to Point hand wired with silver solder
Wired with 14 gauge Acoustic research speaker wire
Steel reinforced Rubber feet
15 pounds, 15.5†wide x 10†tall x 8†deep
Large sounding 6.5″ speakers (see below for specs)
Power Handling (RMS) 50 Watts
120 Watts Max
Impedance 8 ohms
Frequency Response 50 to 5,500 Hz
Sensitivity 95 dB 1W/1m
Voice Coil Diameter 1.50″
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Remington Steelmaster S8 w/ custom Steeltronics pickup. Vox MV-50 amplifier + an 1940's Oahu cab w/ 8" American Vintage speaker. J. Mascis Fender Squire Jazzmaster, Hofner Club bass, Ibanez AVN4-VMS Artwood Vintage Series Concert Size Acoustic Guitar. 1920s/30s Supertone Hawaiian-themed parlor guitar. Silvertone parlor guitar. |
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