D13 Tuning

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

I'm currently rebuilding an older Williams keyless 12 string uni with 7 pedal 5 KL. I have made new 700 style changer fingers for it and will probably put my style (actually Kline) tuning fingers. I will be rodding it up soon and probably list it for sale,,,I'm wondering how much interest there is in b0b and Johnny's new D13 copedent. Seems like it should be the new standard (if there ever could be a standard) universal tuning. Otherwise I will probably rod it up with a more traditional Jeff Newman uni copedent.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Moving the steel guitar world is a slow process. Learning a new tuning is hard.

I sincerely believe that this D13th Universal is an important next step in the evolution of the instrument. It's better than the E9th/B6th approach because you don't have to switch between two different roots/modes. A G7 chord is at the same fret no matter what style of music you're playing.

But as it stands today, there is no instructional material for a beginner. The tuning is obvious to an accomplished D-10 player, but few want to switch. When I went from E9th to D6th (with E9th pedals), I found myself playing in the wrong key fairly often in the first year. That can be embarrassing on the bandstand!

I hope you decide to rod your Williams S-12 for D13th, because the more guitars set up that way, the better. Best of luck to you.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Thanks b0b,,,right now I have so many irons in the fire,,,and these arthritic hands are not always cooperating. I just made a keyless tuner for one of our major manufacturers,,,have 2 more to make for forum brothers,,,THEN I'll try to start rodding this Williams,,,,THEN start rebuilding the BMI I told you about,,,LOL. Johnny just lives about 30 miles from me,,,wish I could get him to help rod this Williams for me,,,but I know he has virtually no free time. To me ya'll have taken a HUGE giant step in the evolution of the tuning!!!! Can't thank you enough!!

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Heck B0B, I've been playing in the wrong key for 49 years. Embarassed

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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Someone asked me about the tonal difference of the D13th. My 10-string D6th has pretty much the same strings and pedals, so this should give you an idea. The guitar is a Ross Shafer Sierra with a Telonics pickup, through a Milkman Half and Half. Here are some examples (live gig recordings):

Trio in concert:
https://soundhost.net/2018/09/wine-country-swing/

Dance band:
https://soundhost.net/2018/04/rhythm-rangers-2018/

I'm missing the 2nd and 7th string of E9th, so you won't hear some of the typical E9th licks that are possible on Johnny Cox's S-12.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Could somebody post the D13 copedant?
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Mike:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=341331

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Also see: https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/d13th/
Johnny Cox's original D13th (Day pedals):

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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Here is a D13th with the changes in more “standard” positions than Johnny’s. The relationships to a D-10 are more obvious with Emmons ABC pedals and the second string half-stop. The D13th Universal concept adapts easily to any U-12 guitar with triple raise / triple lower capability.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The idea is this:

Base the tuning on D9th, a step lower than E9th
Add a string between the 4th and 5th as necessary for a D6th tuning.
Use RKR (the E9th 2nd string lever) to also lower the 10th and 11th strings for D6th tuning.
Add a low D string to get the bottom string of the D6th tuning.
Set up pedals and knee levers from both tunings: E9th lowered to D9th, C6th raised to D6th

Here's a view that shows where those extra strings would fall in the E9th and C6th tunings. If you play a D-10, you would need to adapt to skipping those strings in arrangements that you've learned. But when playing new stuff, those extra strings can be a real asset.

Brad Malone · From: Pennsylvania, USA

b0b or Johnny, Is the string separation the same on the 10 string and 12 string steel?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

On all of the 12-string pedal steels I've seen, the string spacing is the same as on a 10-string. There's just more strings.

I've heard that in the early days, some builders used narrower string spacing so that they could use the same necks and fretboards. That practice went away as the U-12 gained popularity. To be honest, I've never seen one. But the myth persists.
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Brad Malone · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Thanks b0b, string spacing is very important...the string spacing on my Williams is closer than on my Mullen..about
11/32 on the Mullen and 10/32 on the Williams..I like the wider string separation.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Williams guitars have narrower string spacing than most, but there is no difference between a Williams 10- and 12-string. If you're ordering a keyless guitar, Bill Rudolph can make the string spacing wider (custom order). He made a D-12 for me that way once. He can't do it with keyed guitars because of the design of the head.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Maybe I missed something, but it does not appear that many of the now common C6 knee levers are present like the one that raises the 6th up a half tone just for example. This is my most used "C6" knee lever.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

You're right about that lever, Greg. The same note is available on the 2nd string on RKR, as on E9th. If I were setting up a D13th, I'd have the change on the B string instead.

Notice that Johnny tunes his 2nd string to the b7 note (C) so it's always available to him.
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Aaron Johnson · From: Lemoore, CA

Where would you put that change on the B string b0b?

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

You could give up LKV and use it as the B to C change. Perhaps with all the C6th changes available the split tuning via the Ab change would not be missed. I would add two more knee levers at least. A second offset LKL and a second offset RKL. In either case this is a great tuning base but in no way a replacement for a full fledged D-10.

Paul McEvoy · From: Baltimore, USA

Any reason you couldn't do this on a 70s MSA 12 string? Do the strings get floppy on Pedal 7 with those 3 note lowers?

Aaron Johnson · From: Lemoore, CA

Pete, my MSA is set up with D13 and the strings with P7 play well.

Johnny Cox · Posted 23 Jul 2019 12:09 pm

Paul, no reason at all. I first put it on a 70s S-12 MSA tuned to E13th. That's when I started experimenting with D13th. You just have to use slightly heavier strings.
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"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.

Johnny Cox · Posted 23 Jul 2019 12:11 pm

Greg, every change I have on my C6th is on here. It's important to tune the 2nd string to C though.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Johnny, I would like the B to C (and C to B) pedal movement, not just access to the B and C notes on separate strings. So perhaps you you would play the B note on the second string and use the knee on the 2nd string to get to the C note to get the up and down pedal movement?

Don Zeitler · From: Michigan, USA

Would there be a good way to make an E13 tuning on a 10 string Pedal Steel. Any opinions on this?

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

I notice that the Five Pedal lowers the top F# (3rd string) while raising the bottom F# (7th string)at the same time. How is that change typically used? Are both F# notes played at the same time, or are they more often played separately when that pedal is engaged? Are there other pedals/knees that are typically played in combination with that change? I have seen this pedal occasionally on E9th guitars, but its relatively rare and I am not familiar with its typical uses or potential uses. I have seen the same thing occasionally on E9th guitars where of course the 3rd and 6th strings are the G#s; Is this change associated more with E9th sounds or C6th sounds?
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