2nd string and 9th string lower

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Can anyone name me one major song on what passes for country radio in the last five years that has used either the second string whole tone lower or the ninth string half lower?

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2006 at 07:52 PM.]

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

not sure why this is important..

these are both very important pulls and in my view should be on every Steel giutar.

I can play 13ths, add 5 add 9's etc on the 6 string but I haven't heard Keith Richards play anything but a stock triad A chord in the entire 40 years I have listened to Stones songs.

I suspect if you dig thru the AJ sessions you will hear these changes...or possible Vince Gill sessions...

by the way 2nd string whole tone lower, "Look At Us " comes to mind...that would be JH as you know...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 20 December 2005 at 02:25 AM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I don't recall if I copied from an earlier Emmons recording or just adapted the change from one of his other recordings, but; I begin my intro. to ‘A Way To Survive’ using the 2nd. string lower in combination with the 5th. str. raise. (2=C# to D# & 5=C# to B) Years ago, (before the KL) some people originally Lowered #2 on the (A)-pedal. [George Edwards did this, on his Sho-Bud.] BTW: On the KL that Lowers #2 (1)-tone & #9 (½)-tone, you might try adding #10 Lowering (1)-tone to (A) also!
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“Big John” Bechtel
Burgundy D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
Newest Steel

[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 28 December 2005 at 12:10 AM.]

Fred Amendola · From: Lancaster, Pa.

Hi Kevin,
Not sure if this is a hypothetical question, or if you're looking for more examples of where this change was used.
If you're looking for examples, go to Rebel's clip site. There are 4 clips that I remembered posting over the last few years, that show some subtle uses for the 2nd string full tone lower:
1972-Whiskey River-Weldon
1975-New River Gorge-Russ' solo for Charlie Mccoy
1997-Paul's solo in Sammy Kershaw tune
2004-Paul's E9 solo in burnin the Honky Tonks

Hope this helps
Fred

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

It's been a few years longer than that, but I remember working up Paul's solo in "In Love With a Waitress" and it used the 9th string lower. It's a very inconspicuous change. It doesn't have a unique sound to it, but it's very handy when you need it.

In country, I often use it as a scale tone at the V fret, or as the low note of a V7 to I resolution.

In rock, I use it in the pentatonic scale with the E's lowered (Em at the 8th fret, for example). I don't know how common that position is on country radio, but it's all over the latest Open Hearts CD.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 30 December 2005 at 09:48 AM.]

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

According to the tab that I've seen for ‘Look At Us’ there is no use of the 2nd. string Lower at all, unless it is used during the fills, behind the Vocal on the actual record/CD/?! The only changes used in the instrumental turn~around are pedals (C)-(B)-(A) and the (E)-Lower KL! In fact, the 2nd. string is only used for the (2) Lead~in notes for the instrumental~break!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’05 D–10 Derby – (6 & Cool

’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
Newest Steel

richard burton · From: Britain

Tim Harr · From: Dunlap, Illinois

I use the lower 2 change for a 7th all of the time. You can hear PF or BB use it sometimes.

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Tim Harr
Carter D-10 8/9, PODxt Pro; Webb 6-14E Amplifier; 65 Fender Twin Reverb

http://groups.msn.com/TimHarrWebPage

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Here's the "look at us" solo the way John Hughey played it.
Look at us/steel break/key of Eb/E9th pedal steel

        


         (Eb)                  (Eb7)         (Ab)


1._1__2_|_4~~~~~~_4~~~~~|___________________|_________|


2.______|_______________|___________________|_________|


3.______|_______________|________4~4b_4_____|_________|


4._1c_2c|_4~4c~4L_______|_4~~~4L________4~4c|_4~4c_4_4|


5.______|_________4~4c~4|_4a~~4__4~4a_4_____|_________|


6.______|_______________|_4b~~~_________4~4b|_4b~~_4_4|



   (Ab)            (Bb)


1.________________|_______________|__________________|


2.________________|_______________|__________________|


3._11b~~~16_18~18b|_18~~~~__18__21|_23~23b_23_~21~~18|


4._11~~~~16_18~18c|_18c~18________|__________________|


5.________________|_________18__21|_23~23a_23_~21~~18|


6.________________|_______________|__________________|



 (Eb)             (mod B7)     (E)


1.________________|____________


2.________________|____________


3._18b____________|____________


4._____~20~~18~~~~|~19~~~~_14~~


5._18a_~20~~18~18a|~19~~~~_14~a


6.________________|~19~~~~_14~b

Ricky

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Ricky is correct as usual. My point is that I can buy having the second string whole lower (maybe). The second string half lower to me is mandatory. But the ninth string lower is near useless for today's music and the pull is better off devoted to something else. The sixties guys didn't use it either from what I can see.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

The 2nd string movement is the important change; a half-tone is mandatory, the whole tone thing is nice for some unison licks and some opposing motion licks. I'm sure there's some speed picking (which I don't/can't do

) chops in there also

The ninth string change seems like it's most used for the half-stop feel on s.2. But I use it occasionally for 1) an opposing motion V to I resolution with s.6 and pedal B; 2) as the root tone of a m7 chord on strings 9, 8, 6, 5; and 3) a unison note with s.10 and pedal A.

Years ago I raised s.9 to D# with my E-F lever. It gave me a tetrachord scale with pedal A on s. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, or C#, D#, E# (F), F#, G#. But I lost the D note for the diminished chord so I eventually deleted the change when I went from Sho~Bud to Emmons in 1982.

Wait, you mentioned it's use on the country hits of the last 5 years. That let's me out! I haven't played any of them songs.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 January 2006 at 04:00 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Gary Carriger · From: Victoria, Texas

I would be with Bob here on the 9th string half-tone lower. I added it a couple of years ago, and started experimenting with where and how to use. I would hard pressed to give it up now. Very handy in pentatonic scales. And also very uselful in extending speed scales down the neck. I am still finding chord voicing usages...especially with various 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9 string grips. My vote / keep it (add it if you don't have it).
Gary

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Gary, if you would. Give me a an example of your pentatonic use. I'd be interested.

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

if you play for a die hard ray price singer its a wonderful and a must move to have.

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

I can't speak in terms of fancy 9ths, 13ths, and other "ths," or even using knee levers for scales (because I normally slide up and down a fret to get those scale notes when playing single note leads/scales), but I really have been digging the raising/lowering of the 7th a whole, the lowering of the 2nd a whole, lowering the 9th a half, raising the 4th a whole, raising the 1st a whole, etc., just as different ways to get to chord resolution or doubling up on the same note with two strings. I can't remember who brought this "fact" up (if it is, indeed, a fact; I repeat it like it is when I talk to people about the pedal steel), but studies have shown -- and excuse me if I'm repeating something that's mentioned here often in other threads, that the most pleasing note passages for the human ear are when two or more notes are struck, and while one or two notes sustain on the same note, another note raises or lowers and resolves the chord.

As mentioned once in this thread, the 9th being lowered a half is a great version of getting the A/B pedal down chord by using your 9th lower instead of the 10th raise. And as Big John mentioned, what's even a neater resolution is to have your 10th lower instead of raise a whole tone while the 9th lowers. Granted, you either have to use four picks or quickly/slowly pick at strings in succesion (which is what I do), but the payoff is the bigger, more lush chord that Bobbe is noted for.

Hey, I say use our steels to sound like something guitars can't sound like! Pickin' single-note leads and chicken' pickin' is fine and dandy, but to me, the magic of steel lies in the beautiful, big chords -- and lowering that 9th a half tone is just one of the raises/lowers that gets us that beauty not many other instruments can achieve.

I have to admit that it's taken me years to think outside the box on using just three notes to get a chord, but now I'm using 7 and more strings often to get big chords.

Al

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Thats great if you want to play in your bed room, but useless in todays top 40 country music. Again, somone show me one top hit in the last five years that uses the ninth string lower.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 03 January 2006 at 09:42 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I haven't listened to top 40 country in the last 5 years, but I'm sure it's in there. Why would the top players keep a change if they didn't use it? My guitar has 5 pedals and 5 knees, and you can bet I'd replace any one of them that I didn't use on every gig I play.

Like I said, I think its most common use is as the low 3rd of a I chord, at the V fret. It's usually the first or last note of a phrase, like (in E):

F#________________________________


D#________________________________


G#________________________________


E ________________________________


B _____7__________________________


G#________7#--7___________________


F#________________7_______________


E ____________________7___________


D ________________________7--7b___


B ________________________________

or some variation thereof.

------------------

Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

B. Greg Jones · From: Middleport, Ohio USA

Ist one that comes to mind is Mark Chesnutt's cut of "Old Country". PF lowers that ninth string a 1/2 tone at the end of the intro and turn around to resolve the "I" chord.

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

Kevin,

Maybe we're missing your goal. Are you merely trying to replicate today's top 40 country?

Or is your point that you think the 9th lower is useless? Just come out and say it, dude, because you've been given credulous reasons why it benefits not only bedroom music, but music played on "big star" music.

Oh, I guess you've already stated you think it's useless. That's okay. Like Ricky told me, "if you can't hear it, you ain't gonna use it." And like you said -- he's normally right.

Al

[This message was edited by Al Terhune on 03 January 2006 at 11:07 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Okay, we have one in the last ten years. Thats a real country song anyhow so it doesn't really count. Anyone got another? Otherwise its a useless change if you are playing modern top 40 country. Bobby, thats what I expected. If you don't listen to or play the modern country crap then you are happy with your ninth string lower. Believe me, its not in there. Wasn't in there in the sixties either for the most part. Al I haven't been given credulous reasons why its useful in todays top 40 country. I'm saying if you play top 40 country the whole string loweron the second and the ninth string lower
are generally useless and unecessary. Yeah I'm trying to replicate top 40 country. Thats my job. Al I hear just fine. Show me a ninth string lower in those songs. Greg named one.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 03 January 2006 at 11:07 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 03 January 2006 at 11:08 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 03 January 2006 at 11:09 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 03 January 2006 at 11:10 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 03 January 2006 at 11:11 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

What do you use your 9th string for, Kevin? Maybe you don't need it at all. The U-12 guys don't seem to miss it.

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

Kevin,

Sorry -- I don't listen to modern country music, either. And I guess you're right -- you've not been given credulous reasons that it's used in modern country.

It's a shame, because it's a pretty resolution and could easily fit in modern country music. If you've tried it and don't like it, that's okay, too. I think that's why there are so many pedal/lever setups -- to suit everybody's tastes. Your tastes, I'm gathering, have no use for the 9th lower. You're still my American, steel brother, brother!

Al

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Okay guys. I did this on purpose. Partly to show what a sad state of affairs that so called modern country has sunk to. When you've got sellouts like Trace Adkins doing Honky Tonk Bedonk (which is a blatant rock/blues song) and corrupting country music, there's no room for these beautiful steel guitar changes in the music. The other to emphasize what guys in the sixties did with two knee levers and three pedals. Fortunatly I still have SOME quality steel time with my band. If it was up to me I would be playing balads in a traditional country band and using all the changes available to me. But thats not the case. When people compliment me on my steel playing I just say thank you and shake my head because I KNOW what the steel is really capable of. It can be very frustrating not being able to use modern changes availble on the steel because the music DOES NOT allow it. I think that we live in our own world as steel players because we know what the instrument is capable of. The reality of of todays top 40 country is quite different. Still I keep as many Brumley licks in there as I can sqeeze in. Same for Mooney. If there is a steel player in the audience. They'll know.

Bob Smith · From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA

The new Josh Turner song has some unique sounding steel moves in it.Could that be that change in use? Just an uneducated guess here.Anyhow, theres some very cool steel playing on this song. I dont know the name of the song, but its the same guy that sung" Long Black Train." a couple of years ago. bob

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