E9 with 10 strings, or U12?

Charley Paul · From: California, USA

Hi!

Iâ€™m getting ready to buy my first steel, and am debating between an E9 10 string or a U12. I want to buy a good guitar, and not have to upgrade due to limitations of the instrument. I make music full time in studios, with private lessons, and on stage playing guitar and banjo. I feel competent in my understanding of music and adaptability to other instruments.

That being said, I am unsure as to which will be a more versatile steel. I only want one neck. I will be playing mostly jam band, classic rock, and outlaw country type stuff with room for much improvisation.

Whatâ€™s your advice?

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Hi, Charley, you can certainly get most of the sounds youâ€™ll want, and flexibility for improv, out of a 10 string E9 rig. If youâ€™re teaching a lot, you may want that or a second guitar just to make things easier on your students, who are most likely to be learning on 10. Same goes if you expect to sit in on a number of otherâ€™s rigs, as was common when I was learning.
That being said, I truly wish Iâ€™d started on or graduated to Uni many years ago. The usefulness and musical voices on the blended tuning are far superior to me, including extended chord voicing, cello-like lines, rhythmic backup, sixth-type swing, pop, and blues stuff, and the cool fusion of all that lying right in your lap. I have enough to learn for another lifetime on the instrument, just wish Iâ€™d started on it sooner. And you donâ€™t miss a thing from standard E9.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I totally agree with Mark's post. I'll add:
Allow yourself the freedom by accepting the possibility that the answer can only come from gaining experience with steel guitar and then choosing. A catch 22 of sorts. Converting from 10 string to 12 is not a huge deal.

But also consider a 3rd option---Extended 12 E9. For the music you describe, unless you know that you've got a hankering for more complex chord voicing options that you get with C6 pedal steel (that you get with the Universal tuning), the extended range of the Extended E9 gives you a standard guitar's low end and saves you a bunch of pedals you may never need. It also preserves the 9th string D string so that the mental conversion to 12 string is a lot less challenging than the necessary loss of that D in Uni.

Ext. E9 is simply a 10 string E9 with two more strings, a low G# and a low E.

I'm a U-12 player but except for fun at home messing with swing stuff using all the B6 pedals, I only use the tuning for its range on the stand and the times that I go below the 11th string E on the Uni to the low B are rare. I'd get by pretty ok with an S-12 Ext. E9.

edited for slight clarity

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Dittos to what Jon said.

I played U-12 guitars for many years and rarely ever used the B6 "side" of the tuning. The bands I've been playing in don't do any swing or jazz tunes.

Since going back to S-10 E9 guitars, I do find a need (every now and then) for a lower note...not enough to make me want to switch to Extended E9, though.
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

After playing 10 string about 6 months, in 1975, I bought a D-12 MSA from Scotty in St Louis and never looked back.

Why?

I'm a guitar player and loved the fact that 10 string E9 has the same fret positions as standard guitar, but the more I played 10 strings the more I missed the ANCHOR -- the low E on string 6 of a 6 string. I realized that having that low tonic note was something I had relied on for years and I MISSED IT.

The 9th string tuned to D was very useful but as soon as I engaged A+B it got in the way. I had played a show with Maurice Anderson and was interested in his tuning which we discussed at length and he wrote his setup and a few notes down for me. I removed the back neck and installed Reece's Bb6 tuning with changes I didn't fully understand on the front. But the 9th tuning was Eb, which didn't work well for me, so I raised it 1/2 step to E and switched the open tuning to E9 instead of B6 in 1976 or so. I had just gotten the Winnie Winston book and Winnie and Bill Keith were both playing a 14 string version, including the D on the 9th string, but also with many of the C6 changes in the lower register.

I was intent on learning the 6th tuning and was presented with Emmons' Black Album and all those wonderful C6 tunes Buddy recorded. My next challenge was to learn 'Bundle of Rags', 'Kicks to Boot', 'At E's', 'Night Life', and everything else by Buddy I could get my hands on. I had to search diligently, but it's all there.

I use the C6 positions often in tunes you would identify as E9 tunes, so I guess you would say I see the U12 as one big tuning. It's all just music, but this is what works for me. Smile

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Charley Paul · From: California, USA

Thanks for the info so far....

Iâ€™m really liking the idea of a single neck 12......not too sure yet if I want an extended e9 or u12....it would be nice to have some of those chord extensions for Real Book tunes.

A few more questions:

1. How hard is it to switch from u12 to extended e9 setup on an instrument? Is it just a matter of retuning, or is there more tinkering involved?

2. I see 12 string guitars with either 3-4 pedals or 7-8 pedals. Iâ€™m stuck.....should I look for a simpler setup with 4 pedals, or go for the full complement of 7-8 pedals? I donâ€™t want to over complicate things as a new player, but I also donâ€™t want to limit myself and have to buy another PS guitar due to limitations of the instrument....

Thanks!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Do you want to be able to play stuff folks typically play on the back neck of a D-10? If you like what C6 sounds like, you might want the changes that go along with C6. If you just want to lower the range of the E9 tuning, ExtE9 is for you.

3 or 4 pedals is Extended E9
For a U12 you need 3 or 4 E9 pedals plus up to 5 B6 pedals. Knee lever number varies.

To switch, you need to change the last 4 strings
Ext E9 is E G# B D E on the bottom
E9/B6 is B E G# B E on the bottom

Any pedal changes that were on the U12 would be removed and replaced with the lower octave of the E9 A or B pedal changes. And you may want to lower 9 from D to C#, usually on the lever that lowers the 2nd string.

Hope this helps some.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Larry Bell, via his website ---

http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm

--- was my guru when I went from S-10 E9 to U-12 E9/B6.

Yes, the answer to 'how extensive to go from Ext E9-12 to U-12?' is 'quite'.

I understand your dilemma re: the cool stuff you can do with the Uni vs. the bandstand rocking functionality of Ext. Gonna end up being your call. Because of the extensive additional hardware (pedals & pull train) involved with Uni, price can help you decide, too.

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

Well,this may muddy the waters....that happens frequently here. I have one S10 that has a â€œfaux Universalâ€ - meaning E9 with no open D. My 9th string is B and 10th is G#. A knee lever lowers #8E to D and another lowers my 10G# to E,along with some other changes. I have a 4th pedal that gives a C6 type pedal 7 B-C#+G#-Bb. This and some other changes gives me a lot of C6 sounds and the low E is there for that anchor note for, folky, bluesy and jam band type stuff,which I do as much as traditional country. I save my very vintage and standard ShoBud Permanent for that stuff.
I have seen some others on the Forum with this sort of setup. There are certainly arguments against it,but it is easy and cheaper to get an S 10 and make a couple changes than to find a Universal or even extended E9 S12.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

As a fresh green newbie.. I never got on really well on an E9. As Larry says the 9th string gets in the way of amateur picking and with all the bunk notes ot can offer .. That damn D made learning steel more frustrating and miserable than one would expect.

So I switched to an S12 Uni and bonded with that experience far better, and it gave me an opportunity to explore B6 which I found fun and intuitive at a basic level.

Building my chops was simply more enjoyable on a Uni. 20 years later I am playing a D10, enjoying the D string more each month and loving the full C6 coped.

If all I had was an S10, I would definately drop the D and put a low G# on the tuning. Problem with the typical S10 is it has only 3 pedals and although I believe 10 strings is enough. 3 pedals becomes limiting if you want to try other cooedents.

Uni for the win.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

The main difference between an EXT E9 and a Uni are pedals - the Ext E9 typically has 3 or 4, the Uni has 7 or 8 to allow for the greater chord possibilities.

If you, as you say, play outlaw country and classic rock, I don't think you would miss the C6 (or B6 in the case of the Uni) very much. If you would like to play more jazz and swing (including western swing, of course), then you really should go for the Uni (or a D10).

You should realize that 12 strings is harder to play (or, at least, I found it to be so). But I was a newbie when I was playing 12 strings - I'm sure you sort it out over time.

If you bought a Uni, you can always change it to an EXT E9 and find uses for some of the extra pedals if you decided that's all you need. If you buy an Ext. E9, you have to add pedals, cross shafts, etc to get it up to Uni - harder to accomplish.

My last bit of advice - no matter how hard you try, there is a good chance you will not chose a guitar that will meet your needs forever. Most people change around until they settle on a setup that works best for them.
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Charley Paul · From: California, USA

All of this discussion has been so helpful. Iâ€™m thinking I should just get a U12. I am a bit worried about having so many pedals and levers, which is why I was originally settled on an S10.....but it seems like for the type of music I play, access to some of th tones available on a u12 is worth it....

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

Charley, I have a thread going in this section, in which I was asking players why they choose - or don't choose - a D10 over a Universal 12 string. You may find some insight there. (No one is wrong, everyone has a reason).

I've played a U12 since 1979, and I feel it's fantastic. It's not necessary to play swing or jazz to find good uses for pedals 4-8. A nice feature of a U12 is, for instance, at the 8th fret with your Es lowered, you have a G6. On a D10 it would be fret 7, so with a U12 you have a uniform pattern for everything.
Joe Wright has some excellent material on his U12, and he emphasizes that it's all 'one big tuning', sidestepping the idea that you need to think of E9 and B6 independently. I started out many moons ago on a 6 string lap steel, then a Fender 8 string/4 pedal steel, then a S10, and ended up on a U12, so it's not a terrible leap from one format to another.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

If it hasn't been mentioned.. The objection that the E9 is simpler because it has fewer pedals is in a way misleading.

When you play strict E9 on a Uni, you dont even really acknowledge the B6 pedals are there. No one says you must use all the pedals all the time.

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

True enough, Tom. What's interesting about a U12, though, is that you can weave any of those 'B6' pedals into an 'E9' song, as well as use some of them without the Es being lowered.
Joe Wright's take is fresh and very helpful.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Charley,
Let me show you over Skype some of the logic behind the E9 tuning before you make a decision. The B pedal alone on the standard E9 offers plenty of altered voicings. The standard E9 already is a universal tuning. It is clear and elegant.

Example:

Root string 10: sixth string B pedal 6th to dom 7th

Root string 9: sixth string B pedal #4 to 5th. Ad the fifth string A pedal and you have a 6th to major 7th.

But the B pedal in by itself and you have a full minor pentatonic scale. Lower the 2nd string a half step and every string is part of a pentatonic scale. Perfect for quartal voicings.

It seems like players sometimes think about the steel like its a slide rule or an auto harp. It is so much more.
_________________
Bob

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Hi Bob,
Instead of Skype, maybe you can make your B-pedal video and post it here???
I agree with you 100%! The very first thing I tell every S10 E9th player when I try out thier Steel, is, "This is a Universal tuning!", then I play Choo Choo Cha Boogie on it, with E's lowered and/or AB down, and using the 9th string as the P6 function, and other 6th on 9th stuff.
If that's as far as a guy wants to go with the 6th tuning, I get it.
Otherwise, you can do all the same stuff you say, plus alot more 6th stuff, Travis/Atkins stuff, Jam Band stuff, etc, and actually have the missing low end of E9th, on an S12U single wide body Steel.
With an S12U, you can play Jeff Newman style E9/B6 Universal, or you can take the bottom two strings off and set it up exactly like an Emmons S10 E9th, or, you can try out Robert Randolphs 12-string Sacred Steel tuning, or you can try out the Reece Anderson Bb6th 12-string tuning, Cowboy Eddie Long's Universal, etc... It's Universal.
btw, I love Autoharp! 'I did not come up with the Slide-rule analogy for implementing Scales and Modes in various Keys on gigs, but I like the Slide-rule analogy! Smile

Pete

Here's a pretty good vid from a monthly jamband gig.
If you go to 16min-50sec, after the chorus I take a solo where I go between E9th and B6th on the song Dark Hollow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8UfIN_NA4&t=3326s

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