A knee-lever idea...

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

It came to me as I woke up today. Not a flash of inspiration but more of an idle curiosity.

How would it be if I lowered (on standard 10-string E9, this is) my 9th to a B and my 10th to a G# on my LKV?

I keep thinking of that lovely piece by Gary Carter ('And So it Goes', I believe) where he detunes his 10th to the G#. It give the bottom end of his guitar such warmth!

Am I overlooking something that's right in front of my face? Would it take too much of a pull on the LKV on my Emmons?
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I agree, Doug, but I think it's too late to switch to an extended E9 - not sure I could assimilate those new grips at this late stage.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Roger, presently, I lower the 10th to "A" for a little more fullness. So, it might not be a bad idea...if all you had was the 10-string E9th. But for players like you and me, who play double-neck steels, we already have a C6th tuning that provides nice warm sounds with a fat bottom end. Now, while I certainly don't have the chops to do it, I'm guessing a player skilled on C6th could pretty well cop that song and arrangement.

Would someone here up to the challenge? Mr. Green

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I play 12 string so I don't need this but it sounds like a neat idea.
Except that I cannot imagine it being comfortable on a vertical lever.
1) It could be a fairly long throw and
2) you likely would not be using it with A&B down to push against.
Vertical lever alone as a passing tone is one thing. Holding it for any extended time without pushing against pedals is not fun.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I get that, Donny and there's an undeniable warmth and range to C6 that goes some way towards my goal. In fact, I've found quite a lot of it on my back neck but it lacks something because of the string intervals.

Anyway, it's not just that song specifically, - it was just that Gary's detuned 10th put the thought in my head - but the endless possibilities of widening the range of a ten-string E9.

Both necks have their own tonality and, while some replication of one neck is possible on its opposite number, not everything can be transferred with complete success.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That's a point, Jon. Maybe a good 'pedal 9' move instead?
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Norman Evans · From: Tennessee

Roger, I moved my 10th string to 9 and have a G# on 10. I pull the G# to A on my B pedal. I lower the 8th string to D on the lever I lower 2 on. This tuning works very good for me. YMMV Regards, Norm

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I really want that D note without having to engage it, Norman. Having that open D as the root note of the chord is, in my opinion, one of E9's great attributes. I'd miss it badly.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Norman Evans · From: Tennessee

I missed it too when i first changed the setup, but after I got used to it, I like it better. I've found a lot of uses for it I can't do the other way. It's a matter of which I like better.

Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That's my point, Al. I'm pretty sure he doesn't fret the 10th string but detunes it and plays it open while barring the higher strings.

In any case, I don't want to slavishly copy anyone but that low bass note does so much for the tuning that I'd like to have it while not losing the 10-string set up.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Roger, here is Gary's copedent as of a few years ago, at the time when he'd recorded And So It Goes. He sent it to me, so it's out of the horse's mouth.
Not intended to sway your thinking (because it sounds like a good idea for ten-string). It's a lovely piece, isn't it?

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That's interesting, Charlie - many thanks.

I believe, though, that he had to have detuned the 10th just for that piece. It's in B and I hear the 6th note in the bass.

I'll be studying his set up. And yes, it's hauntingly beautiful - it can bring a tear to my eye.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Jeff Harbour · From: Western Ohio, USA

Roger,

I love lowering the low B down to G#. It puts a warm 3 tone on bottom of the open chord, which I find very pleasing.

In my case I use Pedal 5. That pedal came from the factory with a C6 raise on the first string. When I switched to a D on top, I had to move the pull. After much experimentation, this is the best thing I found to do with it.

Also, due to the other three pulls on the pedal I end up with a 'feel stop' that is very close to the A.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That's a good thought, Jeff. Right now I have the Isaacs pulls on p4 (raising 5 and 6) but I might consider losing that for my new idea.

Maybe my Isaacs could go on LKV - after all, I wouldn't want to raise 9 and 10 as I've described and use my A pedal, would I?

I have a Day set up but p4 could still work.

Thanks for all responses - much food for thought. I'm becoming obsessed with the beauty of playing off string 9 lowered along with raising my B and C pedal, then releasing the 9th lower. Buddy's 'Shenandoah' is my current inspiration.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Henry Brooks · From: Los Gatos, California, USA

I asked Tom Bradshaw to rebuild my guitar and change the setup. He told me he couldn't get the 9th string to go down to a B. The guitar is a 1985 MCI perhaps a newer guitar can manage it. Also I lower the 10th string, 0.036W B to A
Henry

Charley Bond · From: Inola, OK, USA

If you "PIGGY BACK" some bell cranks, you can make the strings do more than the guitar was designed to do.
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John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Roger, Earnest Bovine was implying that with a 12-string E9, like he and I both play, you'd have what you're looking for. The low E is also quite lovely and handy for many things.

I asked Gary Carter about that tune a while back, he does manually tune down the B to G#.
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Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

Hi Roger, solving the same lack of lows on E9 I did this set-up..fat and full chords...Larry

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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, guys, but I'm too old to 1, go to a 12-string and 2, to lose my D string.

Larry - thanks for confirming that low-G# retune; it had to be what he was doing.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Roger...anything is possible (within reason) ..take me for example..nearly 20 years (march 2019) .. with a transplanted heart Very Happy

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I awoke at 3.00 am wondering if my RKL (currently lowering my 5th to Bb and my 10th to A) would tolerate another half-step downwards without any 'under-guitar surgery'.

It turns out that it will! I have the 'B down to G#' on my LKV but, as Jon Light so perceptively commented, holding that pull for any length of time is too difficult. Having it on RKL, though, is a doddle!

Now I'm wondering about changing that LKV pull (not useful, anyway); what about putting the B - C# raise on the 10th and winding off that pull on my A pedal??? I've always loved getting a 'five' in the bass (10th) with a 'four' chord on the higher strings.

Or maybe I should go back to bed and see what comes to me in a dream!!!!

But these thoughts prompted me to do a 'search' and I found this old thread. Thanks again to everyone for some thought provoking notions.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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