60s Emmons Bolt-On versus Later Wood Neck PPs

Don Mogle · From: Round Rock, TX, USA

Hi Everyone,

Could somebody tell me if there are any significant differences in sound between the mid-60's Emmons PP bolt-on guitars versus the later model 70s wood-neck PPs?

I've heard many say how great the early bolt-on guitars sound. I've heard equal praise for the wood-neck guitars of later vintage.

Here are my questions:

1. Is the changer mounted in a different kind of way that makes the earlier models sound better? Are they both mounted in the same manner?

2. Do wood-neck PPs sound similar to the early bolt-on guitars from the 60s?

3. What makes the 60s Emmons PP bolt-ons the HOLY GRAIL of steels as some of you have stated?

I realize every guitar is unique. Also, the pickups and wood used to build the guitar have something to do with it too. I'd be interested to hear the take from any of you who've owned or played both at one time or another.

I'd like to hear Herb Steiner's, Lynn Stafford's, Mike Skagg's, or Billy Knowles' opinion on this topic too. Please comment if either of you are reading this...

Thanks,

Don

Rich Upright · From: Florida, USA

IMHO, I feel an aluminum neck sounds much nicer than a wooden neck steel; there are those who would differ with me. Aluminum has more resonance,sustain,throatiness, and sounds less "piercing" than wood. Although wood tends to have better tuning stbility during temperature changes.
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A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Don, I donâ€™t think any year model is better than another. You have good guitars and not so good sounding guitar from all eras. Robbie Primm has a 78 thatâ€™s as good as any Emmons Iâ€™ve ever heard. My 75 bolt on sounds great and it is a wood neck. Iâ€™ve had both metal and wood neck Emmons and canâ€™t tell much difference. I compared mine to the 65 bolt own that I rebuilt for Damir and the 65 had more highs but the 66 was more throaty sounding like my wood neck and it was also a metal neck bolt own. The worst sounding Emmons I ever played belonged to local guy here and it was a 71 Fat Back. So who knows, this is just my opinion of course. All the push pulls have had one thing in common, they stayed in tune and even the worst one sounded great.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Mike Scaggs · From: Nashville, TN

I agree with Henry, it really depends on the individual guitar. I have rebuilt both wood and aluminum neck guitars down to the bare bodies in both mica and lacquer and they all sounded great in the end. One of the best sounding ones I did to date was a 73 Fatback, just something special about that one. Like Henry said, all PP sound great and setup properly, play great too....
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Mike Scaggs · From: Nashville, TN

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

The most common answer I hear whenever someone asks one of these "which sounds best" questions is:

"MINE".

That's probably a good thing. It means most people are happy with the guitar they have.

When they ask what they should acquire to improve the tone of their current guitar, the most common answer is:

"TECHNIQUE."

Not a different guitar.

These two answers say all you really need to know. But still, I love these questions. And Donny's was pretty specific, and thus valid. But the answers will probably be the same.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Don Mogle · From: Round Rock, TX, USA

Thank for the replies fellas.

My gut tells me that the aluminum bolt-on necks may have tuning issues with temperature swings. Granted, I will probably never play outdoors where the Sun could pose a problem. But I just don't want to deal with the issue--real or not.

My personal preference is for the wood-neck lacquer guitar (which is a bolt-on PP). I think the extra wood would resonate more, provide better tuning stability, look better with the exposed wood grain, etc. I have a thing for lacquer guitars.

If the blue '73 wood-neck PP Mike Skaggs just rebuilt and sold ever comes up for sale, I may have to jump on it. However, I don't see that happening soon. Chris Ivey had a couple cool wood-neck guitars; wonder what ever happened to these?

Regarding the wrap-around guitars, yes, I'd love to have one of these, but not for $10K. Perhaps one might come up sale at the right price and right time.

Thanks Again,

Don

Doug Palmer · From: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

Big Ron made several changes to the Emmons design as it evolved. They were done as improvements.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Yes, the metal neck bolt on died out because changer couldnâ€™t be mounted with out necks so they couldnâ€™t put a guitar together without the necks which were sometime behind on orders. Went to the cut tail and wood neck bolt ons because guitars could be put together with necks. When necks arrived, they could complete order. There was also tuning issues with metal neck bolt on which they figured out that the neck couldnâ€™t touch the key head. When that was resolved, no tuning issues.
I donâ€™t think the push pulls lost much if any of original sound because think the changer design is a big percentage of Emmons tone. The changer barely changed from the very first guitars that were made. Of course cabinet design and way changers were mounted affected the tone also so, corners were cut in that area to speed up assembly and cut cost is where the cut tail was born. Some of the 80â€™s push pulls sound just as good if not better than the 60â€™s guitars and of course, good and bad in both time periods.
If Iâ€™m correct, I think the famous Blade guitar of Buddyâ€™s was a cut tail made in the 70â€™s.
I read somewhere that the wrap around guitar was discontinued mainly because of the strength in design with changer mounted directly to wood body. They had a different tone than the rest of the designs. Iâ€™ve never played and would like to try one. I really think their value comes more from being first Emmons guitars, not their tone.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Don Mogle · From: Round Rock, TX, USA

Henry,

Do you have any idea when they were able to solve the tuning issue with the metal-neck bolt-on guitars (where the neck does not make contact with the keyhead)?

1966? 1967? 1968?

Does anyone else out there know the answer to this question?

Thanks...

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I donâ€™t know Don, canâ€™t temeber where I was reading all that data about Emmons guitars. Was a lot of comments from Buddy on there and he was one saying first ones had tuning issues but I donâ€™t know when the problem was addressed.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

I'll defer to the experts, but I thought the 'fix' for aluminum neck bolt-ons was just adding a little more 'relief' under the peg head casting where the neck pocket is. Did they start doing that at the factory at some point? I guess I'd heard that it was a 'post-factory' mod, and it's a relatively easy thing to do.

Maybe one of the experts mentioned above can comment. I've got two bolt-ons, an invoice number from probably '66, and a D series serial number from '67, both aluminum neck D-10s. They stay in tune as well as any other P/P I've owned, so I assume they have 'the fix'?

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Bill Iâ€™m for sure not an expert but I think you are correct. They milled out the keyhead to accept the neck into it without touching it.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Drew Pierce · From: Arkansas, USA

Don Mogle wrote "My gut tells me that the aluminum bolt-on necks may have tuning issues with temperature swings."

My experience, Don, does not support that. Granted, I have only one metal neck bolt-on, a '67 S10, but it remains totally stable through the worst possible playing conditions. When I'm not gigging I store it in an air conditioned room, then regularly play it outdoors during the warmer months (April-October) in every conceivable climate range from hot/dry to cool/damp and in many cases, from one extreme to the other in the same three-hour gig. It stays rock-solid throughout. I rarely have to adjust tuning at the key head and virtually never adjust any changes during a show.

As for wood vs. metal, I have heard some killer sounding wood neck PPs, most all of which were bolt-ons.
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Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals.

Don Mogle · From: Round Rock, TX, USA

Thanks for all the replies. Hmm...sounds like the metal neck tuning issue is not so much of an issue after all!

Jack Strayhorn · From: Winston-Salem, NC

If the improvements made over the years took the guitar away from it's original sound then why is the holy grail "The Blade"? There were no structural design changes after late 67' into 68'. The Blade is a split neck design. A bolt-on only has slight tuning issues in extreme temp changes.

J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

Hi Jack, Can you tell me what year model "The Blade" is?
And I do not know what a Split Neck Design is, Could you explain that please. I know, I sound like a Dummy and that is because I am. Just trying to learn some things. Thanks, J.R.
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

J R, check out this post, Henry posted pictures of wraparound, bolt-on, and split tail neck types:
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=312531

Dyke Corson · From: Fairmount, IL USA

I believe the Blade is a 1968 ser# 1136D. I have a D10 Cut tail Ser# 1146D I also have some wood neck bolt-on guitars and a couple aluminum neck bolt-on guitars. I play LOTS of outdoor gigs in direct sunlight, according to my ear they ALL go out of tune about the same when clouds cover the sun or the shade of the stage awning covers the guitar. I don't notice any one model being worse than the other. I can say my Legrande III and a GFI Expo I have are more stable in those situations. But the push pulls always sound the best to me. As for the tone differences my favorite gigging guitar is a early 80s D10 (has Legrande style pedal rack) It's LOUD and very responsive, sounds great with IEMs. The 68 Cut Tail sounds awesome through an amp on old school country pickup gigs. I think every push pull has it's own personality! Smile

J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

Thanks Bill Terry for that info. A great read for sure. I learned a ton of information in just a short time of reading. No where else but here on the Forum can you get this stuff. My hats off too b0b. What a Guy. Thanks, J.R.
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose

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