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Topic: Help - Analysis Paralysis - I gotta make a move! |
Rich Rubel
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 11:32 am |
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I have been lurking for almost a year trying to sort this out. I retire this year and I am treating myself to a pedal steel to learn to play (currently only play bass). Back when I was in the service I fell in love with it after hearing Garcia play. So after all this reading and researching here is what I’ve decided upon;
SD 12 ext 9 Tuning (So I can eventual play blues and rock with my small cover band)
Basic pedal set up 3X5 to start that is expandable (means parts need to be available).
Triple up triple down
Split tuning.
Either Key or Keyless – doesn’t matter to me.
Cosmetics ae not an issue, but I dont want something looking beat up.
I would like good tone but at this stage I am too dumb about PSG’s to know good from bad
1st purchase (and hopefully the last if I choose well) will be probably be a used guitar.
U12 would be fine - Change the set up -yes - I must learn anyways.
Professional instrument (Buy once, cry once)
I think this means I would need a more contemporary guitar. I have looked at new lower end models from Mullen, Fessenden, Williams and (all great guitars) but to get what I want would be 3500 to 3900 price point which is out of my price range. BMI has a S12 universal for $3000 which I would stretch to if I could be assured about the quality of the instrument. Not much out there on them.
Sans the BMI, my budget would be about 2500 shipped for a used instrument. What brands would you recommend based upon my specs and price range?
How about the used Carter U12 Damir is selling vs. a new S12 universal from BMI? (An "Either one would be great" type reply is probably polite and truthful but not really helpful being that i don't have a clue  If your temperament permits, putting your stake in the sand would be deeply appreciated
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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana ........Groucho Marx |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 12:06 pm
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The chances of you buying the steel you stick with the rest of your life are virtually zero. I'd buy something that I was pretty sure I could resell in a few years when you get the inevitable urge to move on. Don't buy anything in some wild color. Those guitars don't sell easily.
I would not try to start on a twelve string guitar. A standard 10 string E9 neck gives you lots of musical versatility, and it's simply easier to learn with fewer strings. It's easier to sell a used 10 string steel than a 12 string steel. Plus, I seriously question the value of those lower strings on an extended E9. I had a S12 extended E9 many years ago and those lower strings did not get touched very often.
Shopping for a pro-level instrument makes a lot of sense, but the Stage One gets lots of good reviews. Other companies are building models that are a step down from their flagship models, but still well built; great guitars for learning. Look at GFI, Justice, or Mullen. Speaking of Mullen, they are in Colorado. Why not pay them a visit?
Finally, Why do you think you want an SD-12 rather than an S-12? You should sit at a few steels and consider what feels comfortable.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Cartwright Thompson
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 2:12 pm
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| The Carter 12 string that Damir has would probably be perfect for you. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 3:06 pm
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| Excellent advice from Paul Sutherland. If you stick with it, you will probably end up buying another guitar sometime. I'd suggest talking to some local players, checking in with Mullen is a good idea too. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 3:14 pm
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That Carter U12 looks like a very good steel, BUT you said you want an extended E9 and would have to convert it if you bought a universal. That's harder than you think.
I admire your attitude of not being afraid to work on a steel. But I assume you have never done that before.
It's one thing to convert a relatively simple steel, such as a 3 pedal 4 knee lever steel, or to do a simple conversion, such as from Day pedals to Emmons pedals. But most universals have 7 floor pedals and 4 or 5 knee levers. That Carter is a 7X7. That would be a very challenging steel for a newbie to try to convert. Just look at the undercarriage. Would you know where to even start?
Proceed with caution.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 3:23 pm
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If Damir's Carter fits your needs and budget, buy it! If you are just retiring, you may be like a lot of us that don't have the time or inclination to start learning in steps.
If the 12 string is in your vision, start with that. No need to try and work your way up from a 10 string...just wasted time and motion.
Also, if you start with the 12, you won't have adjustments to make down the road. Put it all out there in front of you to begin with and learn as you go.
With that Carter, you have everything you need for either the Universal set up or the 12 string extended tuning and you have the parts there customize it if need be. It's a lot easier to take existing parts off a guitar than it is to chase them down and add later in my experience.
So what if you decide to change down the road? Many of us do. Worry about that when the time comes around.
Best wishes for you and best of luck whatever you decide.
Nothing wrong with BMI and there are currently parts available from the factory. They are one of the companies that have specialized in Universal 12's and you could customize it to your specific needs by buying a new one.
Carter parts are still available from Canada, but they are pricey and require minimum orders.
It's pretty easy for me to spend other people's money.  If it were me in your shoes, and I met the conditions I first described in my opening, I'd buy the Carter and I'm not afraid to put my stake in the sand by saying so. |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 4:22 pm
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Just one more thought: a universal is probably, on balance, as versatile as a D-10. The one big tuning approach should let you do stuff you can’t do even on a D-10. If I were to start over, I’d go U-12. I don’t have enough neurons left to restart now.
I think extended E-9 would be much more limited unless you planned to stick to straight country. I would really miss the C6 capabilities. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 5:20 pm Think about the "journey", not the destination.
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I wouldn't concern myself with tunings, the number of strings, or raise/lower capabilities. Coming from bass guitar experience only, you'll first have to master finger and thumb picks, muting techniques, using the bar, manipulating foot pedals and knee levers, and the volume pedal. Then you'll learn basic picking, chords and pedal/lever combinations, and getting from one place to another on the neck.
All the above you can learn on any pedal steel. Get whatever you can, and begin in earnest. |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 6:30 pm Psg
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| Damir, yes..... |
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Rich Rubel
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 6:51 pm Re: Think about the
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
I wouldn't concern myself with tunings, the number of strings, or raise/lower capabilities. Coming from bass guitar experience only, you'll first have to master finger and thumb picks, muting techniques, using the bar, manipulating foot pedals and knee levers, and the volume pedal. Then you'll learn basic picking, chords and pedal/lever combinations, and getting from one place to another on the neck.
All the above you can learn on any pedal steel. Get whatever you can, and begin in earnest. |
Yeah thats going to be exciting!
Thanks for the answers thus far. Mullen is about 2 ½ hours from where I live…..out on the plains about half way to Kansas. I’ve aleady mapped them out and it would be a great Motorcycle ride when the weather warms a bit. BUT…… I wouldn’t want to take up their time knowing they are currently out of my price range. Time is money and I have a great deal of respect for small entrepreneurs. It doesn’t seem cricket to impose upon them.
I will have an opportunity to play the instrument in our small charity rock cover band (I love playing in a band) and I have watched You Tube where players comp rhythm chords with a PSG in rock bands. That and country Music is my intended purpose. Perhaps if I had a chance to start earlier who knows, but that’s why the S12 (not SD12).
I have always been willing to indulge my confirmation bias and so Mr. Overstreet’s post is music to my ears and makes a lot of sense (thanks for that stake!). Also about the first buy thing; I may buy a second guitar down the road true, but at 68 yrs old I MAY be kicking up the daisies in a plot somewhere before the second buy occurs. I'm not sayin I'm just sayin.
Mr. Sutherland post haunts me as it naggingly addresses my tendency to overestimate my abilities. When I built my first bass guitar I added up all the work and learning needed and figured at the outside it couldn’t take more than 2 months. Turns out I was right ….,and as a result of my hard work and high intelligence I was able to cram two months worth of work into a little over a year.
So I should probably find someone I could rely on for some guidance before tackling that U12 conversion but damn all the parts are there and everything. Failing that I will keep my eyes open for a S12 ext 9. In the worst-case scenario I could leave the bottom strings off for a while. I’ve read great things about some of those starter Models to be sure, but playing a pro level instrument feels like a commitment and personal expectation. ……I suppose it’s my way of putting my stake in the sand. ☺
Got any recommendations for brands or models that would serve me well? Do you think I could find something meeting my parameters in the $2000 range? I wish sold prices were listed so I could get a feel for a fair price. Without them it is intimidating. I dont care about a screaming deal but I dont want to look like a fool either. Just a fair price for a solid dependible guitar that will hold its value.
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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana ........Groucho Marx |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 7:34 pm
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There are lots of used steel guitars that would work for you. A couple of things to keep in mind; don't buy any guitar unless you know that the person selling it actually knows how to play the pedal steel. Avoid ebay, craiglist, local music stores, pawn shops etc. Unless you know for sure the seller is knowledgeable. Otherwise, you will probably end up with an instrument that will need some work, maybe a considerable amount of work, to be playable. I've owned many guitars, bought some on ebay, etc, almost all of them needed work. If you can't do it yourself, that's a problem.
Post an ad in the "wanted" section. Used MSA, BMI, Dekly can be a good value. It would still be a good idea to find a few local players and try to get some advice. Good luck to you. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 8:02 pm
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| About the Carter U12 of Damir's; you can buy that guitar and play it just fine, you aren't required to use all the changes. The only thing different on a U12 compared to the exE9 is the 9th string D is activated with a lever on the universal. You can easily play all the same chords as the E9th, just with a slightly different grip. I have owned 2 Carter U-12s, the string spacing on those guitars seemed closer than on other guitars. But it's something you can get used to pretty easily. |
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Rich Rubel
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 8:16 pm
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Thanks Bill. Good advice and advice I will follow. I plan to buy either new or from this forum. This seems like a very close knit community that would not take kindly to someone knowingly hurting a member. Do you know of any good PSG Shops or approachable players in Denver?
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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana ........Groucho Marx |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 8:21 pm
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Another option would be to have Damir take the guitar so SGN and have it set up to what you want before he ships it. Might be a good investment leading to less frustration and a faster learning curve.
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Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 9:01 pm
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I am about to receive delivery of a Rains SD10 4x5 that I bought off the forum for $2000. (Waiting on Fedex. It's about 100 miles from my house.)
That's the kind of deal you should be looking for.
A fully tricked-out universal 12 in the hands of someone who has never played steel guitar is a waste of money, unnecessarily heavy, and will slow down your learning curve. You need to focus on the things Donny Hinson mentioned, NOT on all the exotic changes of this or that pedal or lever.
If you do buy the Carter, or any other uni-12, DON'T try to convert it to extended E9 for at least several years. Just play it as it is. You will regret tearing it apart.
I'm done. Good luck.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Rich Rubel
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 9:58 pm
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Yeah..... well i think I going to throw the towel in on the S12 universal at this point. To quote John Cleese at the end the Hilarious Monty Python skit about the difficulties of being the village idiot. "I may be an Idiot, but I'm no fool"
Too many cautionary warnings saying "pay attention!" posted for me not to take notice. NO point in asking for advice if your not prepared to follow it.
So its to be a S10 3x5 or 4x5. Okay, well that lowers the price of entry quite a bit. Maybe I'll take another look at a new Justice Pro Lite or Mullen Discovery. Taking a few more months to learn about and chart S10 models and their prices is probably time well spent. Thanks everyone for your help.
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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana ........Groucho Marx |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 10:58 pm
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What just happened here; somebody actually agreed with me? That's a first!!
PS: Wise decision Rich
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 21 Jan 2018 11:03 pm
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The Mullen folks are fabulous to work with. Having them just up I-70 would be a pretty compelling push toward the Discovery. Which is a really practical, affordable first guitar.
And I think Paul has steered you exactly the right direction. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2018 5:22 am
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Mullen had four G2's at the Phoenix show, all black-mica with silver trim. A D10, an S10, a S12U, and a Discovery.
If I lived within a few hours of Mullen I would buy a Mullen. I played their S12U all weekend in the demo room and really liked it. |
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Rich Rubel
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2018 10:42 pm
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I am going to plan a trip out to see Mullen sometime in February. Now that their Discovery is a serious contender I have no problem letting them tell me why they should be the recipients of my hard earned cash. I also have to make a business trip to Phoenix so I am going try to see Fred Justice if he is available. It appears Stage One is all but out of business. They haven’t accepted any new orders since last April according to their website. Dessert Rose, who is apparently somewhere in Arizona has a nice looking S10 3X5 on their website but not much about it and I don’t know much about them. And I am going regularly check the guitars for sale here so eventually something will reveal itself to me. Or at least thats how the plan goes. Thanks again everyone for your help.
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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana ........Groucho Marx |
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Jim Means
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2018 9:35 am
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Rich,
Do yourself a favor and take in the Dallas Show! You will learn more there in 3 days than you can possibly imagine. The steel manufacturers are all there to answer any question you might have. Most of all enjoy your journey into the world of steel guitar.
Jim in MO
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Musicians have to play.....They really have no choice |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 24 Jan 2018 1:40 pm
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| Jim in MO makes a good point: there's probably no where better on the planet than the Dallas or Phoenix shows to see the shiny new products of all the current manufacturers. And you can fly to Dallas to see the Mullen stuff faster than driving to Flagler! |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2018 5:28 pm
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I know the last thing you need is more input with all the great replies here, but-
My first guitar was an ext E9 which I immediately realized should Universal because of the flexibility- that conversion cost a bunch, but was worth it. I basically learned on a Universal, and now play Bb6, a different type of Universal.
I just wanted to add my vote - go Uni! No harder than anything else really
Enjoy whatever you get - you’ll have a great (and horrible) time - hahahah
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Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Patrick Thornhill
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2018 5:53 pm
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| You may want to drop Doug Earnest (Stage One Steels) a line. I don’t think he’s getting out of the guitar business, but rather trying to catch up on a backlog of orders. He’s an awesome guy - the kind of person you’re glad to give your money to - based on my communication with him. The Encore model can be set up with as many knees and pedals as you want and last I looked was like $1,500 or something. Hard to go wrong with that! |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 25 Jan 2018 1:50 am
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Rich, you must be an engineer ! 
You are way overthinking this.
As mentioned just above, grab a Zum or Encore 3+4 E9th for about a grand, spend a year learning and playing.
Have some fun, annoy the family and the pets with the screeching. You will know when it is time to upgrade. If at all.
It is NOT time to go crazy, it is time to start simple. 
The music you learn and play on an Encore or a Stage One 3+4 is exactly the same as a high priced whatever ...
best to you
t
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Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Last edited by Tony Prior on 26 Jan 2018 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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