U12/C6 Players: Function for Knee Lever?

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

I recently acquired a Kline U12: 7 pedals, 5 knee levers. I'm used to my MSA U12: 8 X 5.
I believe I'll have an 8th pedal added to the Kline, but I'm curious about a knee lever function.
Presently the LKV on the MSA & LKR on the Kline raise the 1st string from G# to A#, and drop the 6th string from G# to F#. Nice function in the E9 mode, basically.

What I'd like to know is this: if I choose to eliminate the current change, and I want to add a second lever for the B6 mode, what change would be the most typical/beneficial? I know some pros use 5 levers (maybe more) for the C6 neck, but in addition to the lever that lowers my 5th string from B to Bb (3d string C to B on C6), what would you seasoned Universal/C6 players suggest for the second lever operating in the 6th mode?
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Two A's to Bb (C6 ly speaking.) Makes your C6 into a C7 tuning, and gives you a Im7 tonic with pedal 6.

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

In the case of E9/B6, that's raising string 6 from G# to A, and that's on P2 (B pedal, E9).

Thanks nonetheless, Ken, this is type of feedback I want.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Matt Teske · From: Seattle, WA

You can generally get the G# to A (A to Bb in C6) with the B pedal, but it can be difficult to hit with hanging around the 6th mode pedals, and can't be used with other pedals without double footing.

The B to C (C to C# on C6) is nice, if the changer can accommodate it, though the E->F raise can do the same thing in the E9th position.

I myself have tried to put a lot of the extra C6 lever changes into the universal, only to realize that I can always get the same change playing in the E9th with a lever I already have. I suppose that it what everyone means when they talk about the one big tuning.

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

Thanks, Matt, interesting take.
I bought my MSA U12 new in 1979, not having much use for the B6 side of things.
So glad I went it - there are options with "one big tuning" that aren't there with a double neck, and I don't feel I'm missing out on much.
I recall hearing/reading that the reason it took so long for a Universal tuning was that the triple raise/triple lower mechanism was slow in coming, hence a double neck was the way to go.
But now? Just amazing how much is available on a U12.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Good get on the Kline, Daniel. Very Happy

The most common C6 levers are the 4 that Buddy used
on C6 he raised and lowered the 3rd C string 1/2 step and he raised and lowered the 4th (and maybe 8th) A strings also 1/2 step.

On B6 that translates to
1. B to Bb on 5
2. B to C on 5

3. G# to A on 6 (and maybe 10)
4. G# to G on 6 (and maybe 10)

#1 is a common E9 change (many E9 players also lower 10; I don't advocate lowering 9 on E9/B6)
#2 is 1/2 pedaled A pedal
#3 is the B pedal as previously pointed out
#4 is is another somewhat common E9 change -- G# to G

A lot of good C6 players only have one or two of those and get by just fine.

Personally, I have G# to G on one of my guitars and have tried some of the other Emmons changes on various universal guitars but none of them 'stuck' over the 40+ years I've messed with universal tunings.

Some universal players have B6 levers in the middle, like on a D10.

Hope this helps some. Very Happy

_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

Thanks, Larry. I found your site with revised Universal set up - as Mr. Spock might say, "fascinating"!

I like the (E9) change I presently have (6th string down a whole step, 1st string up a whole step), but as I don't use it a lot, I was looking for something that could be more useful in B6. Avoiding a half-pedal (P1) might be really useful in both modes.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

I think I may go with your #4, Larry - 6 & 10 strings, G# to G.
Doug Jernigan was kind enough to suggest raising and lowering 6 & 10 1/2 step (his 4 & 8 on C6); I may also opt for your idea to drop the 2d string from D# to C# on the same lever that lowers the Es. Would be cool to have the equivalents of the older and newer 1st string C6 pitches, without really impacting the E9 side. (Of course, I'm not sure how much I'll miss the present function of that lever, as above, but I figure it can be put back if need be).
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Having gone down the Kline S12U rabbit-hole myself, I wish I had just left it exactly as it was when I got it, and just play it.
Wow, they are hard to work on.

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

I wouldn't try working on it myself, Pete.
I might've left the tuning as is, but since Joe himself is going to add a pedal, I figure it's easier for him to change it. There's also a fellow Forumite who's worked on my MSA, and he's a drive away, not a flight, if I want it changed back.
No ultimate/perfect set up, but I've changed very little on my MSA U12, which I bought new in 1979.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.

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