| Author |
Topic: Splits diagram needed |
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 12 Oct 2015 4:33 am |
|
| I just bought a new MSA Uni Legend before I go and mess things up I need to get to grips with the way splits work. How the split screw works, anyone got a diagram the shows the screw. I have searched the forum but no luck with finding what I need. Thanks |
|
|
 |
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
|
Posted 12 Oct 2015 6:11 am
|
|
All you need to know is the way to tune them:
1- tune string open
2- tune the raise
3- tune the split w both the raise and the lower
activated using the original lowering hex nut
4- tune the final lower using the screw in the back
of the changer
It has to be done in this order. What the usual case is the split commonly ends up with the lowered note being too flat and the screw in the back of the changer brings it back up . |
|
|
|
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
|
Posted 12 Oct 2015 6:28 am
|
|
| I think John is wanting a diagram or something to see the "mechanics" of how and why "splits" work,,,or maybe even an explanation of what a split is? |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 12 Oct 2015 6:45 am
|
|
Here are the two prototype threads about split tuning. The 2007 thread had Patrick Laffrat's original (I believe animated) split-tuning diagrams, but they're not there now. The 2010 thread has the same basic, but non-animated, diagrams.
2007: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=104579
2010: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=192580
Jim has stated this very concisely and clearly. Do it in the order he states. What happens is that after you tune the open string and full-raise and split-lower, the full (non-split) lower will now be flat. Then screwing in the split-tuning screw gives an earlier stop to the full-lower, bringing it in tune.
The only other thing I would add is to double check to make sure, before you start the process of tuning that string and its changes, that the split screw is backed out to the point where it doesn't interact with the changer finger. If in doubt, just back off the split screw a bit and look to make sure it's clear of the finger. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 12 Oct 2015 6:48 am
|
|
BTW, the misnamed split screw won't help you get a split on the B string if you have a Franklin drop and an A# lever. You'll need the "extra rod method."
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 12 Oct 2015 6:57 am
|
|
| Fantastic help thank you so much for the help. Other people will like it as well |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 12 Oct 2015 11:12 am
|
|
| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
All you need to know is the way to tune them:
1- tune string open
2- tune the raise
3- tune the split w both the raise and the lower
activated using the original lowering hex nut
4- tune the final lower using the screw in the back
of the changer
It has to be done in this order. What the usual case is the split commonly ends up with the lowered note being too flat and the screw in the back of the changer brings it back up . |
|
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 2:48 am
|
|
I've tuned the 6th string full tone drop either before the split or after the split and it doesn't matter on my Franklin. Both methods work.
My usual method is to tune the full tone drop first with the Allen head screw on the changer top end. Been doing it this way for 20 years.
I tune the 5th string full and split the same way. |
|
|
|
Malcolm McMaster
From:
Beith Ayrshire Scotland
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 3:24 am
|
|
John, speak to Mitchell Smithey at MSA, he is guy who assembles and adjusts all the new guitars, he plays a Legend S12 himself, great guy and very helpful.
_________________
MSA Millenium SD10, GK MB200, Sica 12inch cab, Joyo American Sound Pedal/ Jay Ganz Straight Ahead amp, Telonics 15inch in Peavey cab, Digitech RP150, Peterson tuner.Hilton volume pedal.Scott Dixon seat and guitar flight case. |
|
|
|
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 3:40 am
|
|
| Thanks again, MSA are sending me a rodding chart and a manual soon. |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 7:29 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I've tuned the 6th string full tone drop either before the split or after the split and it doesn't matter on my Franklin. Both methods work. |
Me too, on my Carter. Extra rod method.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 11:26 am
|
|
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've tuned the 6th string full tone drop either before the split or after the split and it doesn't matter on my Franklin. Both methods work. |
Me too, on my Carter. Extra rod method. |
Yes, tuning the split with an extra rod is different than using the split-screw method. My Franklin (about a year earlier than Jack's) needs an extra rod, since it doesn't have split tuning screws - I'm not sure that Franklins or Carters have ever used split tuning screws.
But using the split tuning screws - which is what the OP asked about in the first place - then I have found I need to tune in the order Jim specified, for the reasons stated. This is the way I have found both my Zums (that I still own) and on the Emmons Legrande (that I used to own). The physical mechanism of correcting the out-of-tune pull is different between these two approaches. |
|
|
|
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 12:12 pm
|
|
| A bit odd that MSA don't have a rodding chart or manual for MSA guitars. I need to get the B pedal rods in the right holes in the changer and the bellcrancks.. |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 12:31 pm
|
|
| did you try contacting the people at msa? |
|
|
|
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 1:10 pm
|
|
| Yes kyle emailed me said they don't have any of either chart or manual. |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 1:15 pm
|
|
| that's odd. you'd think they could have given you a hint at least. |
|
|
|
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 1:39 pm
|
|
| The price they are they shoud put a DVD with it. Lol |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 2:33 pm
|
|
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've tuned the 6th string full tone drop either before the split or after the split and it doesn't matter on my Franklin. Both methods work. |
Me too, on my Carter. Extra rod method. |
Yes, tuning the split with an extra rod is different than using the split-screw method. My Franklin (about a year earlier than Jack's) needs an extra rod, since it doesn't have split tuning screws - I'm not sure that Franklins or Carters have ever used split tuning screws.
But using the split tuning screws - which is what the OP asked about in the first place - then I have found I need to tune in the order Jim specified, for the reasons stated. This is the way I have found both my Zums (that I still own) and on the Emmons Legrande (that I used to own). The physical mechanism of correcting the out-of-tune pull is different between these two approaches. |
Funny thing is, I do tune it by the method Jim posted. I also tune it with my E's lowered. That's how I was taught. Sounds better than tuning it by itself.
And, I have never seen a Carter with the split tuning screws. The back of the neck where it goes around the pickup, slopes down at an angle. I'm sure it can be done by a good machinist, but I would never try to drill those holes.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 13 Oct 2015 5:47 pm
|
|
Yeah, Richard - I believe you can tune in either order with the extra-rod method. My point is that if you're using the split-tuning screws, you have to do it in the order indicated by Jim and in those threads I referenced - at least on any guitar I've tried it on, and that is at least 5 I've owned with split screws.
I don't believe Carter ever used split-tuning screws. I owned one and have seen a bunch from different periods and none of them had them. Not as confident about the Franklin. I just know mine doesn't have them, but it's a very early guitar - ca. 1980.
I really like the split screws, but if I was to add them, I'd definitely want to take it down to Paul Sr. for the change. But it's fine the way it is - the extra rod method works fine and this isn't a loaded-up guitar anyway. |
|
|
|
Patrick Laffrat
From:
Gemenos, France
|
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 14 Oct 2015 2:45 am
|
|
My Franklin has Allen head screws on the top for the 5th and 6th strings. I had Paul install those about 5 years after I got the guitar.
I've tried both ways of tuning and it does not matter. The end result is the same, both the full and split lower properly tuned.
Actually, I didn't know about tuning the full lower last until I read a friends Zum tuning instructions about 10 years after I had the adjustment screws installed. I had always (and still do) tuned the full lower first.
Here is a picture of my Franklin with the added Allen head screw lower adjusters.
 |
|
|
|
Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
|
Posted 14 Oct 2015 5:13 am
|
|
After adjusting a split when using either the set screw method or extra-rod method, the end result is that the final lower will be over tuned and must be corrected with either an extra raise rod or with a set screw stop.
The set screw stop method is independent of the lowering rod setting as set in the split position whereas the adjustment of the corrective raise rod in the extra-rod method is dependent on the setting of the lowering rod as it was set in the split position.
With the set screw method you could set the full lower first as long as you intentionally over-tune the lowering rod first and use the set screw to bring the lowered string back into correct pitch. There’s no reason to do it in that order, though.
With the extra rod method you must have the lowering rod adjusted to its split position before you correct that pitch with the extra rod. As an example, if all these tuning nuts were backed out, I see no way you could start fresh by tuning the full lower first.
_________________
Jerry Jones |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2015 6:53 am A side question
|
|
Once you tune the split as described, will you have to tune it this way every time you tune the guitar? Sorry if this is a dumb question
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
|
Posted 14 Oct 2015 8:57 am
|
|
9 out of 10 players that have splits on their guitars still don't seem to understand the concept....Most of these explanations seem to still confuse some players......
If the lower finger is lowered a whole, and you want to bring it back up a half, you are moving both parts of the finger...The opposite is true for the raise...
One of THE most useful splits is the C pedal raise on 4, coming back down a half with your "E' lower lever..creating a wonderful + chord voice...The explanation as to why it just doesn't work on most guitars is quite simple....The lever is tuned to lower E to Eb...If you raise the E to F#, you increase the tension, and therefore the travel needs to lower it from F# to F..This interval will be sharp if not for the ability to raise AND lower at the same time...So the lowering string travel, is set to a longer pull...to be able to take the string several cents lower than it needs to be on its own......And then we "stop" the finger prior to reaching that point,...We are still moving the mechanism, but the finger cannot rotate any further than the split screw...Its is this "play" that allows us to tune the "in between" notes..
Currently my G2 has 4 splits and 3 "half stop" feels....And thats just the e9...
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
|
|
|
Jason Lynch
From:
Essex, United Kingdom
|
Posted 14 Oct 2015 10:38 am
|
|
| Mickey, not to get too far off topic, but can you touch briefly on the half stop feels. what methods are there? |
|
|
|
