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Topic: Pickup suggestions for MSA Vintage XL |
Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 26 Feb 2015 4:57 pm |
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I've been struggling to get decent tone from my 1980 MSA Vintage XL S-10. I realize that a lot of the tone is in the hands...and I'm constantly working on that, but no matter what I do, something is lacking. Lately I've been thinking that swapping out the pickup might help. (yeah, I know about the slippery slope)
The guitar is a maple body with the short aluminum base. The stock pickup is a single coil SuperSustain II. The pickup seems unusually microphonic. I've measured it at 10k ohms, which from everything I've read, seems a bit low. Mostly, I'm gigging through a Session 400. I have the bass cranked, the mids cut, treble and presence pretty low. No matter what I do, I can't seem to tame the mids, and if I turn the treble up, it gets shrill.
From what I've read, a lot of people used to recommend the E-66 for MSA's. Is that still the best place to start? Any other suggestions of pickups....or other ways to improve my tone? |
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David Higginbotham
From:
Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2015 5:31 pm
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I've had a 79 vintage XL for years and tried nearly every pickup available. My search ended when I installed an Emmons single coil wound to 19.5K They are a perfect match IMHO. There is definitely an issue with your SS pickup.
Dave |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 Feb 2015 5:37 pm
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I love the Tonealigner in mine.
The Truetone was pretty good, but kinda bright.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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autry andress
From:
Plano, Tx.
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Posted 26 Feb 2015 6:52 pm Msa Pu
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The BL 705 or a George L 10-1 would work real well
in that MSA. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 26 Feb 2015 6:58 pm
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I have an E 66 in my MSA Vintage XL 12 string... I expect there are some tonal differences between a 10 and 12 string pickup.
It seems to fit nicely in our live mix. Its soft and sweet sounding which is a good sound for that band ... think ambient pads in an acoustic guitar environment. That tone works well there as the acoustic guitars take up a lot of the lower mids and the E66 emphasizes upper mids.
In general if the steel is going to be more of the dominant instrument my preference is a more rock inspired tonality... so I gravitate toward a crisper thicker darker tone that pops a bit more in the lower mids....however a lot of that must come with the guitar as well.
Another guitar...a Fessy... has George L EONS...they are more to my taste. They are a thicker and slightly darker E66 from what I understand. That guitar has a crisper tone and feel and lower resonances so its a very balanced tone that results... I suppose an E66 represents the strengths of the MSA tone well and the EON represents the Fessy tone well.. something says to me that reversing the scenario would be a step down for both.
As above some of my fav steel tones are BL705s but Ive never used them.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 26 Feb 2015 8:22 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2015 7:50 pm
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A friend of mine had a Vintage XL with a E66 that sounded great ! 
_________________
Bill |
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Butch Pytko
From:
Orlando, Florida, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2015 8:08 pm
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Here is my 1979 MSA XL D-10 with Supersustain pickups. My pickups measure--outside neck = 21.2 and inside neck = 20.9. Your pickup seems quite low, but I remember Maurice telling me when I was ordering the guitar, that he would wind the pickups to whatever ohms value I wanted. So, it could of been ordered that way, or there just may be something wrong with it. It seems to me with such a low ohm value of 10k, that whatever pickup you put in, you would get a very dramatic change in tone!
I played my MSA a lot of years up to 2004, also through a Session 400, but I just couldn't quite get the tone I wanted. I remember Buddy Emmons one time, told me about someone he knew who had the same guitar as me with Emmons pickups in it, and that person was happy with the tone he got. So, that could be a good indication to try Emmons pickups.
Different amps can give you different tones, too. Out of the 3 amps I have: Session 400, Session 500, and the Evans 500 FET LV--my MSA sounds the best through the Evans. My best steel and amp TONE combination would be my Emmons LeGrande D-10 through the Evans--this result makes me feel that the Emmons pickups may have something to do with it. But, that's my ear/taste type thing!
You mentioned the E-66's. I took them out of my Derby D-10, because they sounded too much on the high-end. I replaced them with 2 other George L models and still am not happy with the resulting tone. I guess I just don't like the George L line of pickups. |
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Posted 27 Feb 2015 8:53 am
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I have the BL710's in my MSA D10 Classic and am very pleased with them. The Supersustain II pickups didn't do a thing for me.
_________________
Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 27 Feb 2015 10:16 am
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Thanks for all the replies. Getting a consensus on which is "best" is bit like herding cats, I know. Still the suggestions will narrow the field.
Butch, it's helpful to know the rating of your SuperSustain II pickups. It reinforces my suspicion that there's actually something wrong with mine. A piece of info I didn't mention is that a while back, the guitar was occasionally losing volume. In the course of wiggling all the cables etc, it *seemed* that tapping the pickup restored things. Only happened a couple of times, so I can't be sure, but now it does seem less sensitive....I have to crank the amp a lot more (thought it was because I'm playing with a louder band)
My other thought is in relation to the E-66 on MSA guitars. There is a lot of criticism of the dark tone of older MSA's, making the E-66 a good match. Were the later models with the partial aluminum neck and SS pickups (like our Vintage XL's) built that way to address the tone issue? That might explain the folks who like a hotter pickup like the 10-1 or BL-705.
What I'm leaning toward is trying a replacement pickup...as yet undetermined. Maybe a PF-1 at 18.6K would be a good compromise? Then, on the premise that my stock pickup truly is faulty, look into having it re-wound. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 27 Feb 2015 3:51 pm
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It's possible that the bad tone reputation (completely untrue IMO...) may have come from the Supersustain Pickup... My first steel, an MSA Classic S10 had one and I think "sterile" is probably the right term. I would think through a tube amp, though - had I one at the time - it would have been particularly nice - kind of a like a G&L six string with the MFD pickups but with rolled off highs...sort of a sterile tone until you start popping the front end of a tube amp to get some texture.
Another possibility is that the attack on the two MSA's I've owned was not tight and crisp, instead being a bit "saggy". In some cases, however, depending on the music, a saggy feel is nice... Fender amps for instance have their fair share of sag. Its there for a reason...a laid back expressive approach - a roundness to the envelope...less bold. Thereby different than a Shobud for instance which I do love, but have a bold in your face but rich tone. No wonder the bold attack of a bud worked well with saggy Fenders. OTOH...An MSA having the roundness by theory would match better with the hard power amp of a Mesa...incidently...that's what I use...not a coincidence. It also works really well with a Peavey Bandit 112 Transtube. I don't care for it with my Peavey Vegas... It all makes sense though.
It's all in what you are after, how you want to sit in the mix, and how you want to sit stylistically in the musical context you play in...and lastly...your pickup is only one component in a complex system...and it takes trial and error to find the pieces that work well together. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 Feb 2015 9:40 pm
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the bad tone reputation as i recall was because the classics were a kind of dull dead sound. this was quite apparent when they came out. i think it was before the supersustain pickup and may have been partly due to the body material and resonance (or lack of).
there is probably some pickup now that would help.
there weren't as many choices back then. (70's)
curly chalker evidently liked the dead sound. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2015 5:59 am
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| chris ivey wrote: |
the bad tone reputation as i recall was because the classics were a kind of dull dead sound. this was quite apparent when they came out. i think it was before the supersustain pickup and may have been partly due to the body material and resonance (or lack of).
there is probably some pickup now that would help.
there weren't as many choices back then. (70's)
curly chalker evidently liked the dead sound. |
Some of the mica body MSA guitars had a thuddy
sound and little sustain, no question.. I took one apart and it was a plywood, as many MSA fans know, others may not. Not sure if all the mica MSA's were plywood, but many were from what I remember.
There was NEVER a problem after MSA started making their guitars out of maple.. I have had several of each, and the maple/lacquer MSA guitars had a much better sound, and greatly improved sustain.. I have always felt however, that MSA could never overcome the bad reputation those mica guitars generated.. They knew those old mica MSA's had "tonality issues", and corrected them with greatly improved woods and aluminum pickup pockets which the mica MSAs did not have.. I feel the sound was a greatly improved when MSA "upgraded" in the later 70's... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 28 Feb 2015 9:41 am
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With regard to the mechanical end of replacing the pickup, I'm trying to see exactly how it's mounted. It looks like the bottom layer of the pickup is made of plexiglass. It's mounted on an adjustable metal plate which has one adjusting screw in the front and two in the rear. How is the pickup attached to this plate....glue? I don't see any mounting screws...at least not from the top. I haven't disassembled it yet. (and won't until I have a replacement)
The George L's pickups have tabs for mounting screws. Will I need to remove some or all of these? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Feb 2015 10:02 am
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It's a PAIN. Remove the three screws, keeping the springs. Remove tray.
Turn tray over, see two screws.
For replacement, I'd use Velcro dots.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2015 7:43 pm
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Bob, one of the best sounding steels I ever had was a dieboard (plywood) body, mica covered MSA Classic, it sure didn't have any tonality issues. It had factory single coil pickups in it, and had plenty of sustain.
I did a test several years ago using four different steels on a song I recorded, I posted it on the Forum and the guitars I was using, and had people guess which one I used on which verse or chorus. About 80% of the "guessors" thought the chorus I did with the '75 Classic was the Emmons P/P. If anyone is interested in checking it out, you can probably do a search through my posts from about 4 or 5 years ago and find it.
Here's a video of me playing that guitar. This was recorded with an old video camera, through the mic on the camera. The quality isn't very good, but you can hear what the guitar sounds like.
[IMG]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q129/dbl10/Darvins%20Videos/th_IMMOVINON_zps348b8b10.mp4[/IMG]
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 Feb 2015 11:40 pm
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| Nothing sterile about that at all...quite the opposite. |
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Posted 2 Mar 2015 8:40 am
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I had an S10 Classic mica/plywood and the sustain and tone was just okay. Replaced the pickup and tone was better but still lacked sustain. Got a D10 mica/solid-maple and the sustain was great but the Supersustain pickups were muddy and lifeless. Replaced them with the BL710's and now it has great tone and sustain.
_________________
Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 28 Nov 2015 5:07 pm
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| Dito to what Darvin said. I have gotten more compliments about the tone of my formica over dieboard classic over anything else I have played. The second most amout of tone compliments Ive gotten was on my gfi.... formica over dieboard. Hmmm?! |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 28 Nov 2015 5:18 pm Install a 10-1
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They have liitle bolts on the bottom so you don't use the tabs or Velcro.
_________________
Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Nov 2015 6:00 pm
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Or you can use velcro so you don't have to remove the tray...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 28 Nov 2015 6:22 pm
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| Lane, what year was your uni put out? It seems that MSA was only doing silkscreen decals for a short while. |
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Mitchell Smithey
From:
Dallas, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2015 11:44 pm
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| It's easy to put a modern pickup on the old mourning plate.You may have to drill a couple of small holes for the george l type, but it's fairly easy. As to the type of pickup any of the newer ones will sound great in that guitar. A 10-1 is a good starting point for an all around workhorse. X-R 16s will do well also. Just my opinion of course. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Dec 2015 7:27 am
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I think it was 76.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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