2,3 & 6 minor theory?

Uwe Haegg · From: Hilleroed, Denmark

Could somebody please explain the theory
behind these chords?
Thanks.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

the 3rd, 4th, and 6th degrees of a harmonized Major Scale are minor chords.

see http://www.torvund.net/guitar/harmscale.asp

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Take a C major scale and build chords by using every other note. Starting on C would be for the Ichord and starting on D would be for the IIchord and so on.



C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F


- - D - - F - - - A - - - - - - - - = Dm = IIm


- - - - E - - G - - - B - - - - - - = Em = IIIm


- - - - - - - - - A - - C - - - E - = Am = VIm

Am, Dm, Em share the same relative positioning on the fretboard as the C, F, G chord.

On E9 playing strings 6 5 4 w A+B will give the chords
C, F, G at 3rd, 8th & 10th fret.
Playing strings 7 6 5 at the same frets give the Am, Dm, Em.

To change a major chord into its relative minor, raise the 5th note in the chord a full step. For a C chord it would be the Gnote that has to be raised to A. Otherwise the voicing will sound as an Am7 when the bass-player plays A and you play a C-chord.

The relative minor is always found at the same fret as the major chord. 99%true.

Showing the major chords and their relative minors at the same time.



C - D - E F - G - A - B C - D - E F - G


- - D - - F - - - A - - C - - - - - - - = Dm7 = IIm


- - - - E - - G - - - B - - D - - - - - = Em7 = IIIm


- - - - - - - - - A - - C - - - E - - G = Am7 = VIm

Showing the similarities



1 - -b3 - - - 5        = minor triad


D - - F - - - A - - C  = Dm7 = IIm7


E - - G - - - B - - D  = Em7 = IIIm7


A - - C - - - E - - G  = Am7 = VIm7


      1 - - - 3 - - 5  = major triad

Bengt Erlandsen

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 19 January 2004 at 05:52 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Well done Bengt

carl

Bob Wood · From: Madera, California, USA

Would it be wrong to say that in the Key of "C" the relative minors, Am, Dm and Em would be a 1m, 4m and 5m?

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 19 January 2004 at 10:28 AM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

In the key of C the the Ichord is always C and everything is derived from that. That is why the II & III & VI always harmonize as minor chords when using a major scale.

If the song where in the key of Am then the Am would be the Im and the IVm Dm and Vm Em would be derived from that.
the C chord would be a bIII chord since the Aminor scale looks like this.



1   2 b3  4   5 b6  b7  1 


A - B C - D - E F - G - A


      1 - - - 3 - - 5 every other note = Cmajor

Even though the Am can be viewed as both Im(Key=Am) or VIm(Key=C) what is important to understand is that the order and relative position of the maj/min chords stays the same.

So learning the order of the chords in a harmonized major scale will help you know where you are on the neck and let you vizualize which chords are above/below where you are playing.

So the C major scale (and all other major scales) harmonize like this.
Maj --- min --- min Maj --- Maj --- min --- dim
and then everything repeats from the start

Or you can see it like this

---

might be easier to see the majors minors and the diminished chord that way.

Bengt Erlandsen

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 19 January 2004 at 11:20 AM.]

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

No it would not be correct to call them the 1m, 4m and 5m.
Am is the relative minor in C (6m)
Dm is the (2m)
Em is the (3m)
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8
Maj-Min-Min-Maj-Maj-Min
C - Dm -Em -F - G - Am
The 6 most common chords in any key will follow the Maj-Min-Min-Maj-Maj-Min order.

The 6m would be used the most, then the 2m, then the 3m.
JE:-)>

[This message was edited by Jim Eaton on 19 January 2004 at 01:20 PM.]

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Yes that would be wrong. In the key of C major, the relative minor: a minor is vi (6), d minor is ii (2), and e minor is iii (3). *In the Key of a minor: a minor is i (1), d minor is iv (4), e minor is v (5), and F is VI, (major 6). It's all relative;

[This message was edited by Fred Glave on 19 January 2004 at 10:58 AM.]

I edited this to correct the a minor/C major relative chords.

[This message was edited by Fred Glave on 19 January 2004 at 06:41 PM.]

Bob Wood · From: Madera, California, USA

Sorry bout being so blond. Even though I've been playing PSG nearly twenty-five years, I'm just now delving into theory. I can hear the changes, and even find them without thinking about them, but knowing what they are called..........? So, any info you can give to me in "layman's" term is greatly appreciated. Thanx.

Bob

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Jim E
I did not know that you played a guitar w 14notes in
each octave
Must be tampered tuning



Frets             1 1 1 1 1 1


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5


C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C

The majority would use 12notes in each octave



Frets             1 1 1 1 


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 


C - D - E F - G - A - B C

Bengt

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

One way of finding them on a PSG E9th neck is:

(at any given I fret)

1. The A pedal brings in the "VI minor". (relative to the I chord)

2. The E to Eb lever brings in the "III minor" (relative to the V chord)

3. The B and C pedals bring in the "II minor" (relative to the IV chord)

4. The E to F knee lever brings in the "dim" if you slide down two frets. (Relative to the V7 chord)

Note: there are many other places to find them; just as there are many other places to find the I, IV and V chord, II, III and VI "relative minor" chords, etc. Learning these places and practicing finding them turns theory into reality; and more importantly, music!

This also explains WHY the A, B and C pedals, and the two "E" knee levers just had to be.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 19 January 2004 at 11:43 AM.]

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

Bengt,
I was not trying to show frets, just using the dash's between the scale tones to provide the room I needed to write the chord names under the root tone.
If you going to be so picky about it, I'll just lay out and let you answer these questions in the future.
JE

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Jim E
I did not mean to be picky. You know that I was not serious asking about you having 14notes in the octave. I hope you will help contribute w answers too in the future. If I had not been busy writing my post I would have seen your reply where you explained everything real nice and easy to understand.

I thought this

was meant to be understood that I am not serious and what is written is as a joke.

My apologies
Bengt Erlandsen

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 19 January 2004 at 02:36 PM.]

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

Jeff,I was thinking I had been taught (high school harmony) the "normal" situation would have the V chord in a minor key as a maj chord? Thus, in "a" minor, the IV chord would be d minor, but the V chord would be an E 7th. As it would be if we were playing in A major.(Something about natural minor, melodic minor, & whatever the third minor scale was? Gone from my upper story now? I think the melodic minor is the minor scale we usually use? Maybe the 3rd minor scale I was searching for is the harmonic minor scale?

[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 19 January 2004 at 02:39 PM.]

[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 19 January 2004 at 02:51 PM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Doug,

any minor scale comes in three variations:
natural minor (A): a-b-c-d-e-f-g-a, having Am (1), Dm (4) and Em (5)
harmonic minor, with a raised 7th step (A): a-b-c-d-e-f-g#-a, giving a major dominant chord E (5)
melodic minor, with raised 6th and 7th (A): a-b-c-d-e-f#-g#-a, Am (1) D (4) E (5). The raised 6th eliminates the "unmelodic" 1 1/2 step between f and g#, making the scale easier to sing.

However, in classic harmony these scales are only used going up. When the scale is going down, only the natural minor scale is used: a-g-f-e-d-c-b-a. In modern music, especially pop music, this rule is not followed as stringently as in classical music.

Hope to have helped,
Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Sho~Bud Pro-I 3+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400

Bob Wood · From: Madera, California, USA

Then..., in a sense I was somewhat right, except it would be wrong if the key is in "C". But, if it's in Am, then the 4m, and 5m are right. Right? I think what I was trying to find out was, that the pattern of 1, 4, & 5 can be translated into the different variations of chords, minors, aug, dim, etc? So if I find one of the patterns, and the music calls for the chord of the song to go from Am to Dm; then I can look at it as going from a 1 to a 4?

Someone help me out here, I'm sinking for the third and last time. Tee hee!

Bob

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Bob,

Bob Wood · From: Madera, California, USA

Ah ha! Thank you Rainer, now that I can understand. Again, thank you!

Bob

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Thanks for catching that Jeff L. I edited my original post to reflect your correction.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Doug,

Rainer covers the ground about the various minor scales. The bottom line to it all is that over 90% of the time, you will play an E7, and not an Em chord to cover the V in an A minor key-based tune. The fact that Em is in the natural scale of A minor is relatively not important because you will have not much reason to use it. And if you want a scale that will play over a typical A minor tune with an E7 chord, the A harmonic or A melodic minor are the scales to use since they have the G# note of the E7 chord.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Uwe Haegg · From: Hilleroed, Denmark

Thank you very much for all replies - I get the picture....
As always, you guys are just goldmines of
knowledge.
Thank you for taking the time to educate those of us who need it.

Uwe Haegg · From: Hilleroed, Denmark

Joey,
That guitar home page really has a lot of interesting theory stuff on it even though it is for six string guitar.
Thank you for the link.
Uwe

[This message was edited by Uwe Haegg on 21 January 2004 at 12:31 AM.]

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

All this stuff is really interesting and "whatever works", I always say. I took theory as a child and played trumpet as a kid in mid-school. I could read music all through my childhood, know all my key signatures etc. ("Not enough to hurt my pickin")

The way I think about it is there is no minor keys. If the band is playing in D Minor(1), G Minor(4), A Minor(5) I always think that the key is still C. and the progression is 2,5(altered with a flat 3rd) and 6(altered with a flat third). For me this opens up alot of ideas for improvisation rather than thinking 1,4,5 minor. It taught me to forget about playing chord progressions and opened up scales for the keys I am in instead. I know this may not be the way most guys think, but for me it really gave me an ability to sit in with bands that I didn't know the material and could sound good anyway.

[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 22 January 2004 at 09:58 AM.]

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