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Topic: About the term "BAND" |
Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 8:39 am |
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When I was growing up, a western band had from five to seven musicians playing and it was a full-bodied
sound with a mix of complimentary instruments.
Remembering bands of the day: Tex Williams, Spade Cooley, Smokey Rogers, Cliffy Stone, etc.
Of late folks seem to be referring to their groups as "A BAND" when there is merely three (3) pieces; or two pieces (2); or even a single solo instrument.
Whatever happened to the terms soloist, duo or trio?
Some of these smaller groups often feature, a drummer using BIG heavy sticks; A tambourine player;
a bass and/or whatever. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 10:07 am Re: About the term
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
When I was growing up, a western band had from five to seven musicians playing and it was a full-bodied
sound with a mix of complimentary instruments.
Remembering bands of the day: Tex Williams, Spade Cooley, Smokey Rogers, Cliffy Stone, etc.
Of late folks seem to be referring to their groups as "A BAND" when there is merely three (3) pieces; or two pieces (2); or even a single solo instrument.
Whatever happened to the terms soloist, duo or trio?
Some of these smaller groups often feature, a drummer using BIG heavy sticks; A tambourine player;
a bass and/or whatever. |
When you were growing up, people could afford to hire a full band.
Same was true when I was growing up.
These days the gigs pay less, and they're more difficult to find.
I've never heard of anyone calling a solo or duo a band. For a rock band, a 3 piece band is usually referred to as a "power trio".
Some groups pull it off, most do not.
Which groups are you talking about that feature "a drummer using big heavy sticks, a tambourine player; a bass player and/or whatever". ??????
I understand the frustration of working with a bad drummer. BUT, having a good drummer is absolutely crucial. As a matter of fact, they're the most important member of the band. The other would be the bass player.
Crummy rhythm section = crummy band.
Rick |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 1:06 pm
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| Crummy rhythm section- crummy band. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been there several times and it made for an awful gig. It makes you want to crawl in your steel case and close the lid. That's what I dislike about pickup bands. You never know what you're in for. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 1:30 pm
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| ...which is why so many good steel pickers are gigging on bass, somebody has to do the job right... |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 3:55 pm
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| ...which is why so many good steel pickers are gigging on bass, somebody has to do the job right... |
Maybe more steel players should learn to play drums too.
That way we'll have drummers who know when not to pick up "big heavy sticks".
I can't think of too many things that are more dreadful than playing in a group with a bad rhythm section.
No matter what style of music.
Rick |
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Ray Harrison
From:
Tucson, Arizona, USA (deceased)
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 5:02 pm
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Hey guys no need to single out bad drummers, bassist etc. I've worked with bad everybodys at one time or another. Guitar, steel, fiddle, piano horns, many that didn't know when not to play, might less how to play.
_________________
Ray Harrison
Bass/sing/Love PSG
77 Stingray/Kiesel 5 string bass
Telonics , Fender Rumble500, Polytone Amps
D-16 Martin, 1970 Ovation guitars |
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Bob Hickish
From:
Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 5:20 pm
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I had the pleasure of playing non ped steel and rhythm guitar with two other fellows that both played - Guitar , tenner banjo & Mandolin - our little trio would get some gigs where we picked up our favorite drummer & a bass player -- thats when people would ask us --
Just how many musicians do you have in your Trio  |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 9:57 pm Like on the olde Red Foley Decca records...............
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a snare drum using brushes is a tremendous asset to any group, giving it a solid sound.
Having played in a four piece group with a self taught drummer that got her start in a drum and bugle corps.........
I fully realize how bad, bad can get. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2014 10:24 pm Re: About the term
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
| When I was growing up, a western band had from five to seven musicians playing and it was a full-bodied sound with a mix of complimentary instruments. |
My dad always called it an orchestra. In his view, a band had to march.
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Alan Tanner
From:
Near Dayton, Ohio
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 3:17 am
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| Ray Harrison wrote: |
| Hey guys no need to single out bad drummers, bassist etc. I've worked with bad everybodys at one time or another. Guitar, steel, fiddle, piano horns, many that didn't know when not to play, might less how to play. |
Ain't it the truth......
My dad had a seven piece band for years. At the end cut to four, finally to three, and then none. His band started playing around the oil fields in Wyoming in the late 20's. They also worked the resorts in the Grand Tetons and so forth. His group was called the Ridge Runners. When he moved to Iowa, after a short "time off" due to marriage and a child (me), he reactivated a group. Some of the first memories I have is of them practicing at our house. They always referred to themselves as "band". Even today, most folks will call a trio a "band". Maybe if it were a singing group, it would be a trio. The word "band" itself has a few hundred different meanings I guess.... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 7:32 am
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Johnny Carson had the "Tonight Show Band", featuring Doc Severinson. Dave Letterman features Paul Schaffer's "CBS Orchestra", which is a much smaller group, and also has no string section. So where do they get off calling it an "orchestra"?
So, I think the general tendency these days in anything but jazz and classical music is to minimize the musician, and what he does.
Go figure. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 9:14 am
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| I'm surprised no one's mentioned the modern practice of calling the likes of 'N Sync--a group of singers, none of whom plays an instrument--a "band". |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 10:08 am
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When I was a lad we'd talk about being in a 'group' - 'band' as a title seemed more prevalent in the '70s and beyond. It never sounded quite right to me, either. A band's only a band if it marches in the street, surely?
'Sound check' is relatively new, as well. We used to call it 'setting up our stuff'.
'Group' seems appropriate to me if it's only four or five guys.
As for 'orchestra', then I think that has to be the full ensemble - strings and all.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 10:13 am
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Then there's always "combo". I guess that's too dated even for a bunch of oldsters.  |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 10:16 am
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| Quote: |
| My dad always called it an orchestra. In his view, a band had to march. |
It's all semantics after all 
Folks speak of more "jazz combos" or "jazz ensembles" than "jazz bands" and perhaps a few more "bluegrass groups" than "bluegrass bands" - but country, rock and blues seem to be mostly produced by "bands" in the common vernacular these days.
I was taught during the middle of the last century that a "band" - either the concert or marching variety - included drums, brass and wind instruments, but no strings; an "orchestra" had mostly strings, with some drums, winds (no saxophones!) and/or brass being optional, and an "ensemble" was any group of musicians otherwise arranged. This was at one time so formalized that the AFM initially refused membership to Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, as their "orchestra" had the gall to combine saxophones with strings, which everybody knew was not "real music."
Historically, "bands" tended to play more popular material, while the "orchestra" world was deeply entrenched in the classical repertoire, but eventually the strings found their way into popular music via the back door, and the popular "dance orchestra" emerged. This cultural shift may have some bearing on the morphing of the associated language.
One thing is for certain for all of us, this is not our father's world and it's not going to be again anytime soon... 
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 15 Mar 2014 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 10:25 am
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| I was taught during the middle of the last century that a "band" - either the concert or marching variety - included drums, brass and wind instruments, but no strings; an "orchestra" had mostly strings, with some drums, winds (no saxophones!) and/or brass being optional, and an "ensemble" was any group of musicians otherwise arranged, |
But the Swing era "big bands" of the '40s were generally formally called "orchestras"--Duke Ellington, Tommy Dorsey, etc.--though they generally had no strings (except in the rhythm section).
The world of popular music is no place to look for orderly, precise terminology! |
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Steven Finley
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 10:33 am
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Well,Ray,
Next time I hear of a single for a steel guitarist I'll be sure to let you know. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 1:03 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Johnny Carson had the "Tonight Show Band", featuring Doc Severinson. Dave Letterman features Paul Schaffer's "CBS Orchestra", which is a much smaller group, and also has no string section. So where do they get off calling it an "orchestra"? |
I remember Johnny talking to Doc about an upcoming performance of Doc's "Big Band".
Johnny: "How many musicians are in a Big Band, Doc?"
Doc: "Oh, anywhere from nine to ...uh... midnight."
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Steve Geis
From:
Fayetteville, GA USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 8:13 pm Drummers & Orchestra
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on drummers: I concur that a really good drummer can make a lot of difference. An awesome drummer can make an ordinary band sound awesome.
on orchestras: I concur that an orchestra has strings.
on bands: I concur that bands march. Orchestras don't march. (LOL, good one, b0b. You made my day!) |
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Tom Franke
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 8:47 pm
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If it's any consolation to traditionalists, most US schools (middle school through university) still maintain the distinction between band and orchestra. And while it's true that orchestras don't march, it isn't necessarily true that bands do march. I think most colleges and some larger high schools have concert bands, which play a different repertoire than the marching bands.
I remember that many smaller Midwestern towns had band shells in the town square. I don't know if that's still true or if they are used for band performances.
As said above these terms break down in popular music. In general, I think a lot of formal distinctions are in transition at this time. However, I don't think anyone is likely to get away with calling the New York Philharmonic a band. I'm not sure how any of this applies in other countries. |
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 15 Mar 2014 11:17 pm
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| ...which is why so many good steel pickers are gigging on bass, somebody has to do the job right... |
Actually, there is a lot of truth to that comment. I find that musicians who have learned bass after they have been playing other instruments in bands are much better bass players than a guy who plays bass only.
Without trying to pat my own back or kiss my own butt, because I play bass, I also play four other instruments and consider the bass the most crucial instrument in the band. The lead guitar player can drop a few lemons while doing back up and not be noticed all that much; however, if the bass player drops the lemons, everyone in the band and the audience is acutely aware of it.
Sorry for straying off topic. 
_________________
(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!) |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 7:52 am
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| ...which is why so many good steel pickers are gigging on bass, somebody has to do the job right... |
| Les Anderson wrote: |
Without trying to pat my own back or kiss my own butt, because I play bass, I also play four other instruments and consider the bass the most crucial instrument in the band. The lead guitar player can drop a few lemons while doing back up and not be noticed all that much; however, if the bass player drops the lemons, everyone in the band and the audience is acutely aware of it.
Sorry for straying off topic. |
Thanks for putting this into words, guys. I've been playing bass in a very good band recently, and you've summed up my reasons very well. My bass parts aren't spectacular and the audience hardly notices me, but good musicians really appreciate someone who can reliably "hold down the bottom". It's quite a challenge.
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| But the Swing era "big bands" of the '40s were generally formally called "orchestras"--Duke Ellington, Tommy Dorsey, etc.--though they generally had no strings (except in the rhythm section). |
I think that was part of my Dad's logic. He once told me that he really enjoyed Merle Haggard's orchestra. The Glenn Miller Orchestra still performs, and they've never had a string section.
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 6:09 pm
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| Sorry, but I have to disagree with some, the Bass is the most important instrument on stage. |
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David Shepack
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2014 8:42 am
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About semantics, bass players, etc. WHY do we say lead guitarists. I think guitar soloist, is a better description. I call myself a lead bass player. (nowโฆ.. Extreme sarcasm ) Yeahโฆ. Paul McCartney was just a sideman. I go to a lot of jam sessionsโฆThe one person ( besides the singer ) that absolutely HAS to know the song is the bass player.
AND, I think that the rhythm guitarist is more of a leader than the " lead " guitarist
If I had to guess, I would say that the term " band " could have came about because musicians thought that calling it a band was cooler than calling it a group.
_________________
Maverick
Fender Blues Deville
Flatiron Mandolin
Gibson RB4 Banjo |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 25 Mar 2014 9:11 am
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| I always think of a band as a group of brass players who used to play every Sunday at the bandstand in the local park, or a group of jazz players. |
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