When did Crazy Arms start to shuffle?

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

What year did the shuffle version of Crazy Arms come out?
I have an older version by Ray Price, but it is straight 4/4 time. [/list]
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LJ Eiffert · From: California, USA

That's what a shuffle is with the walking bass lines and piano & Guitar movements. Winking

Drums set the beats for all that to work.

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

I have an early Ray Price recording of Crazy Arms that is not a shuffle. At some point in time, it changed. What year was it? Anyone care to guess?

Merle Haggard refers to Ray Price going to a shuffle beat in this recent article:

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78605677/
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Barry Blackwood · Posted 20 Dec 2013 2:23 pm

Tom, are you suggesting they recorded two different versions? Seems unlikely for the day..

Graham · From: Marmora, Ontario, Canada

Believe he recorded that song 3 different times. 1961 - Greatest Hits, 1977 - Help Me and on Step One - Greatest Hits Vol. 1 in 1986
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Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

Many, many of the songs we now play as shuffles were not recorded that way. Many were recorded with the drum and bass playing 2/4 and the tic/tac playing 4/4. That has sort of "morphed" into what most play today as all out shuffles. Others simply were not 4/4's. Example: Charley Walker's "Pick me up on your way down", Leona Williams' "Yes Ma'am, were straight ahead 2/4's. When Leona did her Texas album, it was done as a 4/4, and she liked it.
Tom, go back and listen to "Crazy Arms" and see if you don't hear what I mean. Also, "Heartaches by the number" and a few others. Not saying there couldn't have been more than one recording, but I think that's what you're hearing.

Barry Blackwood · Posted 20 Dec 2013 4:16 pm

Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

Hey Barry,

That's actually what I was talking about. When I used the term "morphed" into, I meant that sometimes people think that is how it was recorded. Just pointing out that what alot of folks refer to as shuffles actually started out like I described. Maybe I just didn't make myself too clear.

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

How about this:

early Ray:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4oFrXx8ogI

later Ray:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebEXAWa_Kxo

Maybe he never recorded it with that stronger shuffle beat, but it sure got played this way in later years.

Judging by the strong responses I'm getting here, I guess this is a stupid question. Let's just forget I asked about it.
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Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

Hey Tom,

Not a stupid question at all,in fact, I think a very good one. As for the clips, the Opry Classics was done pretty much like the original,same feel etc, maybe a little less tic-tac. And you are right, in later years, even Ray went to a stronger 4/4 bass line. Hard to say exactly what year, that's why I used the term "morphed". I commend you for being so observant, alot of folks think it was always as we hear it today. Thanks for bringing it up.

Jim Park · From: Carson City, Nv

Hi Jim, Thanks for taking the time to answer this topic! I always thought the shuffle period started somewhere between 62 and 64 when Ray started cutting more Harlan Howard tunes. Was it Ray that insisted on this beat or was it the session drummer that brought it in and the Producer liked it(Don Law Maybe?) I did notice in the Nashville Now clip the piano was pretty loud and the rimshot was buried. For me, the quintessential shuffle has a pronounced rimshot, and most modern drummers absolutely cannot play it properly ......drives me crazy!! I sure enjoy your playing when I get to hear it!!!

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Tom, I enjoyed that early clip of Ray doing Crazy Arms. I know that Tommy Jackson was one of the fiddle players. Do you know who the other one was? Also, I noticed the two "things" coming up on the middle neck of the steel guitar. I assume that was some sort of "primitive" pedal device. Do you have any idea who was the steeler?.....JH in Va.
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Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

Thanks everyone. Yes early 60's was my guess too. And YES modern drummers can't seem to get that beat. I agree. Good modern examples of bands that shuffle well: Amber Digby's band and (out west), the California Rangers.
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I would unhesitatingly describe the 1956 clip as a shuffle. To my ear the bass is essentially doing the quarter-note walking pattern, it's just not very audible (maybe a stand-up bass, and less-developed recording technique), possibly not as relentlessly consistent, but a far cry from "ping-ponging" on the 1 and 3.

And Merle, in that article, refers to "Crazy Arms" as the "benchmark" of the Ray Price shuffle, and I'd think it's safe to assume he was referring to the original 1956 hit version, not some later re-recording.

I also wondered who the steeler was.

Barry Blackwood · Posted 21 Dec 2013 11:00 am

Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

Hey Jim P, thanks for the nice comments. I think you're probably right about the year. Hope to see you soon, take care.

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

I have been thinking about posting on this general topic for a while. On the first Crazy Arms cut, part of what you hear is the relative quality due the recordings of that time and it is an upright. But the bass players in that early era including this recording, while playing 4 notes tended to ( for lack of a better technical term due to my ignorance) tended to wander through the scale. At some point later (and this was my question) the bass players started to play a more strict 1-3-5-3-1 or 1-3-5-6-1-6-5-3-1 pattern
whether upright or electric or if a tictac is doubling. I think this is what defines the difference in the two cuts Tom posted. So who/when is responsible for refining the bass line in a 4/4 shuffle? Yes the piano chop enhances it but is not what defines it.

And +1 on the comments on Hartley's rim shot. Maybe he will tell you about teaching his kids to do "patty cake patty cake".I always enjoy getting to play bass with him.
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Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

Thanks for all the info everybody. I'll still stand by my original position. I hear a distinct difference in the beat of the two youtubes posted. The later one swings harder and is what most call the classic Ray Price shuffle. To my ears, the first tune is not a shuffle. It's just a straight up beat with a walking bass. To me, much more defines the Ray Price shuffle than just a walking bass line. But heck, maybe I'm all wet here. : )
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Jim Hartley · From: SC/TN

Alot of good info on this thread. I think some of the confusion may just be terminology. Also, a good illustration of the different feel of the two cuts is the rhythm guitars. In the earlier clip, they were playing what my Dad use to call the "chunk" rhythm. One, chunk, two, chunk. In the later clip, much more of a stirring rhythm. Anyway, all good stuff.

Bill, thanks for mentioning the patty cake story, I needed a laugh. Looking forward to working with you again, but it looks like I'll be in TX in Feb. Catch ya on the next one.

Merry Christmas everybody.

PS I'm gettin' off the forum to listen to Leona on the Midnight Jamboree. Mike J on steel by the way.

Barry Blackwood · Posted 22 Dec 2013 9:32 am

Here's an excerpt from the book titled, "The Cowboy in Country Music" by Don Cusic.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Crazy Arms was Jerry Lee Lewis's first single back in 1956. He did it as a boogie number, like most of his others. I learnt the song from Jerry Lee before I realized that anyone else had recorded it.
I still think it's the best version.

I think it should be emphasized that the song was one of the few hits to have been written by a steel guitarist; as everyone knows, Ralph Mooney. I wonder if Ralph ever sang it on record.

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

Barry, I think I get your point. Perhaps my definition of a shuffle is too narrow. The swing in the original recording is there, I guess. It's just more subtle. Thanks for that excerpt.
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LJ Eiffert · From: California, USA

I think Al Bruno's cut of Crazy Arms is the real deal shuffle,but what would I know I'm not a drummer. Winking

Uncle Leo J.Eiffert,Jr.