Any reason to shy away from push-pull?

Atom Schmitt · From: Nashville, TN

I just sold my backup guitar and am looking around for something to replace it. I've done almost all my playing on a Sho Bud Pro I so far, and I really have no complaints about it. I'm entertaining the notion of a D10 this time around, though, and also kind of entertaining the idea that if I'm going to have two steels I should have two different ones. Some days I think this is a better idea than others.

Anyway, I've seen a few nice looking push-pulls come and go here, and always felt like that was something I should stay away from since I don't really know much about the mechanism and even more so because I don't know anyone who could do work on one should I somehow screw it up (or worse, buy one sight unseen that is already screwed up).

Is this a rational concern or should I perhaps keep a more open mind about these? I'm sure they sound fantastic. I met a guy a couple months back who was playing one and he told me there were some things he could do with that guitar that he just couldn't do with a Sho-Bud. I'm not sure quite what he meant by that, but it's had me curious ever since.

Anyway, thoughts from the (much more knowledgeable) peanut gallery are welcome.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

My take: they're easy to work on as long as you remember that the clever bits are under the neck, not in the changer. You lose two things from a modern guitar: splits (even a rack and barrel Bud can split) and (if your Bud is a Pro 3 or Super Pro) the ability to time pulls (although some use shock springs of varying lengths to time pulls: I kinda LIKE the "notchy" action of the P/P, and regard it as part of the organic feel).
There's lots of available help and tutorials to help you out there
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richard burton · From: Britain

I can think of two reasons straightaway why you should shy away from a push-pull:

The playing action is mushy and clunky, especially if it is set to factory specifications, no matter how much the underside shines.

The other reason is that splits can't be achieved, unlike an all-pull steel.

I play a push-pull, but I have had to modify it extensively to make it play effortlessly.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

atom...aside from those two quirky inaccurate and misleading responses, i'd say you'd have no real problem with a p/p. my first real steel was a p/p and i was delghted with the mechanics and the way they worked and sounded.

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Atom Schmitt · From: Nashville, TN

Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

I traded in the Pro I that I purchased new in '77 or '78 for a '73 D-10 p/p about 6 months later and have never looked back. No regrets whatsoever. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

They aren't for everybody. I have one that I'm happy with, but my main gigging guitars are All-Pulls.

I have never seen a post that better describes PP issues better than this one by Carl Dixon back in '09:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1347357&sid=64dde4f45ea6e4f81f07ab2c6e59c4b3

I agree with every word he wrote there, but still had to own a PP. Nothings perfect.

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

IMO, a well adjusted p/p is a joy to play and to hear. My all-pulls need way more tuning tweaking than my p/p, and the p/p really does give it back to you in a big way.
True, they're not for everyone...if you're one of those who likes to change your setup often, for ex. Have it set up to your specs and just play the thing.
If you're at all curious about it, I'd say go for the experience. You can always sell it if it's not for you.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Great guitars, I own 2 and they are like nothing else. I am comfortable working on them, so I don't have to worry about that.... and after you learn a bit about PSG mechanics in general, the PP guitars are actually pretty easy to work on. That said, there are a lot of "secrets" to getting them really right, that only a handful of guys are aware of. It is possible to damage a PP guitar if someone has done some radically wrong setup moves and continued playing the guitar with that bad setup.... So proceed with caution when buying an unknown guitar, or a guitar with known problems.
I do play most of my gigs on all pull guitars because I do make use of a number of splits, that aren't possible on the PPs. There are things about the raise dominant nature of the PP that makes them able to do some moves that aren't possible with an all pull... that was what your friend was alluding to.
My answer, have both types... and throw in a Pull Release for good measure.
I used to worry about making sure that all of my guitars had identical setups, etc., but I find that it really helped my playing to move to different guitars with slight differences.... I had to think about what was actually happening, i.e. which string was doing what in a musical sense, rather than memorizing pedal and lever moves.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

How was mine misleading or inaccurate?
Mine has/had a bare minimum of shock springs from the factory, the pedal/lever action was therefore quite notchy, but was a joy to play. And it couldn't split tune.
I'll admit you could call my answer quirky, but I admit freely that I have that trait myself.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

The fact that they can't do splits is a real deal-breaker for me. Even though I played for over 20 years without them, now that I'm used to them and have integrated them into my playing, I'd feel handicapped without them.
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

lane..no offense..i admire your willingness to help. sometimes, though, i feel as if you are talking over some peoples heads that don't have a certain knowledge and experience that many of us take for granted. you assumed anyone knew what shock springs are and splits, and what rack n barrels are and super pro and pro lll, etc.

and richard says spongy which may be the case on a very poorly set up p/p, but not the norm.
richard puts extra springs on everything he touches.

they are cool steels...and do have somewhat of a steam punk vibe.

i have a modern all pull also and do appreciate the advancements that are superior in a technological sense,(especially the splits, mike) but i grab my p/p more lately as i head out the door cause it's right there and set up and i'm lazy.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I've had mine, a '72 Push Pull, and have NEVER had a problem with it.

It stays in TUNE remarkably well and have had little or no problem with it in that regard.

Mine is NOT black Mica but it still sounds fabulous.
What's to be concerned about?

As said elsewhere herein, if you don't like it, you can ordinarily expect to get your money back via a sale.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Yes, Chris, I do tend to assume people know the terms we are talking about. I have also noticed that this is the sort of place that will have to leave define the terms for any newbies listening in and reading.
The OP said he's owned nothing but Buds, so I assumed a familiarity with various models. If you would like the shock springs explained, I'm sure somebody will happily do that, with a minimum of snark or condescension.
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Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Not everyone plays the PP, but enough heavyweight players play them to allay any fears about making a "wrong" choice.

I compare playing a well-set up PP to driving a vintage sports car, which I did for a period of time. It gets you where you want to go with class and a sense of style, and its an enjoyable ride.

The PP might not be for everyone, but the number of players still using them exclusively should tell you there's something going on there.

One of the experiences steel player should have is sitting behind a PP, feeling and hearing it, and making the decision for yourself. If you get one and decide it's not your glass of tea, it's value hasn't plummeted because you own it. You will easily sell it for what you paid.

As to Richard's post about a PP feeling "mushy:" a PP set up properly with all stops occurring at the same time will NOT feel mushy. The mushiness occurs when the pedal stop is not synchronized with the changer stop and the pedal is allowed to needlessly travel past the required distance.

That said, a PP has a distinct feel of its own. It might not be your preference, but you won't find the answer reading someone else's opinion. You've got to try it for yourself.

I will be playing my '64 Emmons D-10 until the sunset of the winter of my life.
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Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I generally advise new players to not consider a push pull to start with but a guitar that they might consider down the road once they get used to playing and tone- then they have a sort of base-line from which to judge.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

They sound great, but I've always found them hard to play and hard to work on. Maybe the ergonomics are wrong for me because I'm short (5'6").
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Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

Herb's post is very good. Chris Lucker & Chris Ivey are also pretty darn knowledgeable about all things push-pull. Of course, they are joined by many others, too.

My two cents is just an echo of what has been said. That is, the feel of a push-pull is certainly different. My opinion - some of the mechanisms in other, newer hi-end steels are smoother. There I've said it. That being said, a well set-up p/p is a mighty sweet thing to play and hear. I have a lot of steels. I practice on a Zum at home but always gig with an Emmons.

Besides their outstanding tone they all have another beyond-critical quality I always look for. They all have what I call great " cut-through". No matter what the mix, lineup or situation, what is played on them cuts though on stage. MANY instruments don't. That is, they sound good at home or on the showroom floor, but get them out on stage and their voice is too often lost among all the others trying to be heard. Not an Emmons. They've got "cut-thru". Hugely important.

I know of no other steel that keeps in tune better. Period. It's true- once you get your tuning set initially, you rarely have to adjust it again other than for your open strings at the beginning of the gig or session.

A push-pull holds it's $$ value better than any other steel.

Last, I think every steel player should have a p/p in the guitars they own. Really, serious 6-string players always have at least one Tele Strat and Gibbie in their toolbox. The same holds true for steel players.

Then again, think about it. Only about 5000 push-pulls were ever made. It ain't like they're making them any more ( except for maybe an odd few). Are you lucky enuff to have yours?

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Heavy. Did anyone mention 'heavy' yet?
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Ben Lawson · From: Brooksville Florida

I have had P/P's (4) since 1970 and I don't do any major work on them myself. I might make slight adjustments or tighten things up on occassion but no disassembly. With guys like Mike Cass in Nashville and John Widgren in Ct. I let them do the big stuff. Besides it gives me a chance for a road trip. As Jimbeau says they are heavy but I got split cases and that helps.
There are quite a few forum members who are well qualified to do any repairs or adjustments that you might not be comfortable doing, go for it.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Pushpulls:

PROS:

-Sound great, (they are the gold standard for tone)
-Play great (w/ proper set up)
-Retain their value
-Stay in tune forever (need almost no maintenance, tweaking or tuning)
-unlimited raise lower on any string

CONS:

-more difficult to work-on and change settings
-no splits (but this is an easy workaround by using pedals and levers)
-need to take the time to learn how it works (In truth, it's an elegantly simple mechanism)
-half stops/half raises tuned often on underside (but once set-up, they seldom need adjustment)

Sven Kontio · From: Sweden

Guys, I might now (edited: that should be NOT!) be as knowledgeable as you all, but as 2,5 year newbie I can at least tell about my experiences. I started with a GFI starter but found out after only a couple of months that i wanted something more professional. I asked my teacher (Sweden's foremost picker over many decades, Mr. Janne Lindgren, RIP) for advise. I told him I wanted something good enough to last a lifetime. I got presented with a 1968 Emmons d-10 Black Mica 8x4. It was actually in terrible condition, which I didn't know at the time. A little later I got in touch with Clem Schmitz of Chrystal, Mn, and with his super professional help over Skype we got the guitar really playable. Being a newbie I didn't miss splits. I had my hands (feet and knees also) full with learning the basics. A year after I bought my second guitar, a 1982 Emmons pp SD-10 in condition as new. I have tried different all pulls at the seminars I arrange, and I must say they feel different and of course sound different. I remember when we at a jam played Steel guitar rag, and when I started playing Mickey Adams said: 'Now, THAT'S an Emmons!' The difference in sound was that obvious. I have never regretted buying pp's and will keep them as long as I can. However, I think that the sound of a pp is perfect for older country music while some all pulls might be more suited for the not so old music, where the steel is more in the background. Well, that's my two cents...
/Sven

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I have one, but rarely play it because I have never liked the idea that it tunes "backwards" (pedals tuned at the keyhead, and open strings tuned at the endplate with an allen wrench). Sure, I could get used to that, but I would never really like it. They sound fine, and can be made to play fine too...if you have the skills and time to learn their idiosyncrasies.

With that said, I think the main point to remember is that they are, after all is said and done, just a guitar. There's no "magic" in there, no "mojo", and nothing in them that's going to make you a better player, and I feel that can also be said of any guitar, old or new. Buy what you like, and play what you like - but remember that what is really "special" is the player, and not whatever brand or type of guitar he happens to be using. Smile

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