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Topic: Going Thru The Winnie Winston Book |
James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2012 3:33 pm |
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Does anyone know exactly what Winston means by using an R, usually on the E strings which are controlled by a knee lever. Until later in the book, he uses L for the only lever the book covers. He uses R at least once as a symbol on string 4.
Usually I am not that picky when tab doesn’t exactly match music but here the music isn’t all that clear either. Has anyone unraveled this? I am working on Great Speckled Bird #2 and She thinks I still care.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2012 3:35 pm
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R-Raise?E-F?
L-Lower?E-Eb? |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2012 4:03 pm
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Steve, are you sure? The book only covers the lever that lowers the E. He also uses R on the 4th string also.
I have tried using the other knee lever and it just doesn't match the music at all.
Another thing I have tried is picking the notes with the lever engaged and releasing it when the notes are picked but that doesn't seem to make the right sound either.
The phrazing on the tunes in the back of this book is terrific.
| Steve Hinson wrote: |
R-Raise?E-F?
L-Lower?E-Eb? |
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 28 Sep 2012 4:59 pm
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| Steve Hinson wrote: |
R-Raise?E-F?
L-Lower?E-Eb? |
That's how I've been reading it.
I have not seriously worked on Speckled Bird #2 or She Thinks I still Care.
I'm only up to about pg 53, as far as actually being able to say "I can play those tunes", but so far I haven't come across anything that sounded off from the tab, unless it is me picking the wrong string.
I completely agree about the phrasing,as well as the sound. Bill Keith's playing and arrangements are really fun to listen to and approximate. He definitely has his own thing going. |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2012 6:38 pm
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For what it is worth. I figured it out. I slowed it down to half speed and seperated the tracks so as to hear the steel only. R doesn't always mean the same thing. Sometimes it means engage the knee lever and sometimes it means engage before picking and then release while the note is ongoing. But it always applies to the one knee lever mentioned in the first of the book. In these songs he is getting a wobbling sound, so I don't think it matters exactly how it is done as long as it sounds good.
I am working hard on She Thinks I Still Care because it is a backup part. That is the only backup part that I have found tabbed.
| Daniel Policarpo wrote: |
| Steve Hinson wrote: |
R-Raise?E-F?
L-Lower?E-Eb? |
That's how I've been reading it.
I have not seriously worked on Speckled Bird #2 or She Thinks I still Care.
I'm only up to about pg 53, as far as actually being able to say "I can play those tunes", but so far I haven't come across anything that sounded off from the tab, unless it is me picking the wrong string.
I completely agree about the phrasing,as well as the sound. Bill Keith's playing and arrangements are really fun to listen to and approximate. He definitely has his own thing going. |
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2012 6:50 pm
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| Quote: |
so I don't think it matters exactly how it is done as long as it sounds good.
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James, that, in my very most humble opinion, is the ENTIRE KEY to playing the steel guitar.
You sir, have nailed it!  
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 1 Oct 2012 10:06 pm
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Seems strange a fellow would write a book and not list an R lever if he used one.
If it is not listed in the levers I would assume it would mean a "ringing note" (let it ring) or a "rack" (rack the thumb across several notes across the neck assending or desending).
Could mean something as simple as repeat.
Strange it was not explained in the book. |
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 3:45 am
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| Looking at the material before the advanced section, on page 80 they introduce the use of the R (raise) for the 4 and 8 strings, as well as use of pedals and levers for C6 and Universal tunings a few pages after that. |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 5:19 am
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A good reputation as a musician does not justify doing sloppy work. It seems to be almost customary among steel guitar players to praise anything in print. There is not much available for pedal steel so writers of instruction can get away with about anything and still and still get accolades for their work. The tablature in the back of this book is really bad in places. Parts of it do not come close to matching the music. In this book R means different things in different places.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Ray Anderson
From:
Jenkins, Kentucky USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 5:47 am
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I totally agree with James. In 2 years of trying I cannot get the lesson from these tabs, they do not sound like the melody or even close. I wasted 25.00 that should have been spent on strings and etc. At least I could have some use for. Not knocking the players at all, they are very accomplished, but lack the ability to convey their talent to instruction. That is an art in it's own class.JMHO I have no problem with the Newman tabs.  |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 6:12 am
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The meaning of R is given clearly beginning at the bottom of page 78.
In looking through the tab, I find in all the cases I saw, R always means the same: the lever that raises strings 4 and 8 a half step. I didn't play through the tabs, so I don't know if there are any kind of inaccuracies in the tab (as far as inaccuracies in corresponding to the recorded music, my copy is 37 years old, so the music was provided on a floppy phonograph record), but I didn't see anywhere where the R was assigned to a different string than 4 or 8, and the fret numbers where it was employed correspond to the chord called for.
In my experience, self-published materials by players well-known as players before they published (this doesn't apply to Winnie) sometimes contain mistakes in the tab, but I never found this to be true of the Winston book.
It's been many years since I used it, but I found the WW book invaluable when I was starting out.
Last edited by Brint Hannay on 2 Oct 2012 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 6:17 am
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Page 78 describes the R naming convention. It's at the bottom right hand corner underneath a heading titled "Chord Progressions". It clearly states the lever that raises 4 & 8 will be called the R lever. It goes on to show examples on page 79 & 80. Up to that point in the book, no tab included the R lever as far as I remember.
FWIW, I've had this book since I began playing in the late 70's. I don't recall ever being confused by the naming convention method. The book was really comprehensive at the time and many a steel player learned to play using just this book. Mine is all dog-eared, moth-eaten and generally falling apart but I still refer back to it today. There's a lot of good teaching and excellent theory info there for someone who wants to take the time to read the entire book.
There might be a couple errors here and there and perhaps the melody might not be what you expect in a place or two, but overall it's pretty faithful and was considered a godsend to me and many struggling pedal steel players all over the world at the time.
Winnie and Bill spent many an hour compiling and writing it all by hand.
It's important to remember that there was no internet then and you couldn't just wave your hand for instant information.
I would encourage you to make sure you are following the tab correctly as the tunes are pretty close in most cases. Some of the melody lines probably came from memory and may just be the way they remembered them, or he may have done it intentionally to show examples using pedals and levers. There's enough information there so that you should be able to change the melody to suit your ear. I'm sure that's what many of us did/do.
If you think this tab is bad, download some stuff from your average Joe on the internet lyrics/chord sites.
[Edit: Sorry Brint, you must have submitted while I was still writing.] |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 6:22 am
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| No problem. You said it well. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 6:48 am
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| I'll add that when one is first learning, trying to watch your fret position, pick the right strings and read the tab all at the same time, it's sometimes hard to keep the continuity of the melody going without losing your place on the page. So it may not make perfect musical sense to you at the time. I had the same problems. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 8:14 am
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James and Ray, I truly am surprised your not finding the Winston book useful or worth it cost. I was just going through mine, my third copy I might add. The two previous copies I gave to budding students of the instrument as they were starting out. Seeing the pictures of Emmons, Jernigan, Anderson, Newman and other great players, that by lending there images to be used in its pages, indorsed a true breakthrough in Pedal Steel Guitar teaching and learning material. 3 months before I ever touched a Pedal Steel, my first, I bought this book. From it I learned enough to work on my own steel, tune it, hand position, blocking technique and the rudiments of basic music theory that I use every time I play. By the time I got my steel, I was well on my way to playing. Every bit of instruction I've acquired since, was purchased to build upon the Winston book foundation. I was fortunate enough to attend one of Jeff Newman's Seminars and use much of his material, but I was playing out long before that, using only what I had learned from this book.
May I suggest, you set your steel aside, read through the Winston book three time, cover to cover. Digest every point that is being presented, visualize and get them ingrained in your mind. Then include your steel in it's study. That technique worked for me, and I'm a talentless boob of the third order. Just saying... |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 8:15 am
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
Page 78 describes the R naming convention. It's at the bottom right hand corner underneath a heading titled "Chord Progressions". It clearly states the lever that raises 4 & 8 will be called the R lever. It goes on to show examples on page 79 & 80. Up to that point in the book, no tab included the R lever as far as I remember.
FWIW, I've had this book since I began playing in the late 70's. I don't recall ever being confused by the naming convention method. The book was really comprehensive at the time and many a steel player learned to play using just this book. Mine is all dog-eared, moth-eaten and generally falling apart but I still refer back to it today. There's a lot of good teaching and excellent theory info there for someone who wants to take the time to read the entire book.
There might be a couple errors here and there and perhaps the melody might not be what you expect in a place or two, but overall it's pretty faithful and was considered a godsend to me and many struggling pedal steel players all over the world at the time.
Winnie and Bill spent many an hour compiling and writing it all by hand.
It's important to remember that there was no internet then and you couldn't just wave your hand for instant information.
I would encourage you to make sure you are following the tab correctly as the tunes are pretty close in most cases. Some of the melody lines probably came from memory and may just be the way they remembered them, or he may have done it intentionally to show examples using pedals and levers. There's enough information there so that you should be able to change the melody to suit your ear. I'm sure that's what many of us did/do.
If you think this tab is bad, download some stuff from your average Joe on the internet lyrics/chord sites.
[Edit: Sorry Brint, you must have submitted while I was still writing.] |
Jerry, I have downlowded plenty of average Joe tab and frankly a lot of it is extrordinary.
The book is worth $19.95. Up until the advanced tab portion the tab follows the music well enough.
Page 78 does explain how R is intended to be used. R is said to be one of two levers. On page 23 it is explained that the bood deals with only 1 lever.
Past page 78, the book, R is used for a number of things not described on page 78.
On the outside cover the intention of the book is described as instruction. When something is sold as instruction, how it comes accross to those who are learning is a prime consideration.
My advice to anyone learning out of this book is that the tab will get muddy in places toward the end of the book. Play it like it sounds and not how it is written. Don't expect the tab to be accurate and you will save a lot of time.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 8:45 am
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Yes, on page 23 it says "all the tablature" in the book is written for three pedals and one knee lever. Oops. That isn't correct. But in the explanation on page 78 and following, it is clearly explained that from that point on they are moving on to incorporate an additional lever, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that the student by that time is no longer an absolute beginner, so moving beyond the simplest student material is appropriate. The book was written with the idea that the student would work through it in order.
And by golly, you're right--there is one example of using the R lever for something not described in the text: on page 99 at the top, they show the R lever being used with the B pedal only, which wasn't described in the text. But if you play it, you'll find it's a cool-sounding use of that lever. I think the general tone of the book encourages the idea that what they've specifically laid out only scratches the surface of what can be done with a pedal steel guitar. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 9:28 am
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I suggested that teachers start using TablEdit for the tabs in books
It would solve the problem of inaccuracies in the tab as well as keeping your place in the tab with the music.
The tab plays in midi note for note with a line that follows along note for note of the tab.
The music will always be the same as the tab and the line will always be at the right place on the tab.
But the whole thing was dumped on with the consensus that tab is painting by numbers and shouldn’t be used so why use an improved version.
It seems for that reason folks who write tab don’t really care if you have a problem with it.
Then you have these folks here that no matter the problem they will swear that they didn’t have the slightest bit of trouble as in “Your just a dummy” so then the newbie never wants to make that mistake again so he won’t say he is having a problem.
So nothing ever changes |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 9:39 am
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
Yes, on page 23 it says "all the tablature" in the book is written for three pedals and one knee lever. Oops. That isn't correct. But in the explanation on page 78 and following, it is clearly explained that from that point on they are moving on to incorporate an additional lever, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that the student by that time is no longer an absolute beginner, so moving beyond the simplest student material is appropriate. The book was written with the idea that the student would work through it in order.
And by golly, you're right--there is one example of using the R lever for something not described in the text: on page 99 at the top, they show the R lever being used with the B pedal only, which wasn't described in the text. But if you play it, you'll find it's a cool-sounding use of that lever. I think the general tone of the book encourages the idea that what they've specifically laid out only scratches the surface of what can be done with a pedal steel guitar. |
Brint, I taught school for too long and got in the habit of finding mistakes in instructional material and working around it. If it wasn't a great book overall, I wouldn't have spent so much time working in it. The licks in tha back of the books are classics and well worth the time it takes to learn them.
He also uses the lever over to the far right side to lower the second string a half step with a half bend, without explaining it.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 9:52 am
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I wasn't trying to jump on you, James, just (kind of like you) pointing out what I believed to be inaccuracies.
Regarding the second string lower: Actually, the book is written assuming the one (pre page 78) lever is the one found on the Sho-Bud Maverick student model, which lowers 8 and 2 (not 4) a half step (as shown on page 17). But you're right, they kind of got that mixed up in the post-78 material with the unstated assumption that if you've gotten hold of a guitar with the 4 & 8 raises, it also has the 4 & 8 lowers. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 12:16 pm
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James,
I'd suggest you read that entire paragraph. While also noting, you are in the BASIC portion of the book. "Great Speckled Bird" is in the Advanced Portion Tab.
It goes on to say and I quote:
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| All the tablature is written for the E9 copedant, using three floor pedals and one knee lever. Depending on YOUR STEEL, this knee lever will lower the low E (8th string) to Eb, and lower EITHER the High E (4th string) to Eb, OR it will Lower the Chromatic Eb (2nd string) to a D. |
It's very evident you haven't read the book, or you'd have noticed "PREVIOUS PAGE" TO GREAT SPECKLED BIRD, Clearly shows a picture of Pete Drake, and also reads: "Advanced Tablature"
Advanced Tab, does NOT mean the BASIC written tab that was shown to teach you. Therefore, forget all about that first section, saying all the tab is using only ONE LEVER. That ends when the ADVANCED section of the book comes into being.
My opinion is, "you might be trying to walk, before you learn to crawl".
And to clear that up, meaning it doesn't sound as if you know all that much about where you're going on steel just yet! And lots of people get in a rush to play before they've learned enough about what pedals and knee levers do.
I can clearly state that opinion, by reading your confusion on what was what, with your steel.
And, above all, by coming onto a forum and making that statement about Winnie and Bill's book as you did, saying it wasn't worth the price because it was wrong,, NOT! Tt was the one Posting that was wrong.
May I suggest that playing along with tab (or trying to) isn't good, until you know the very basics of what your pedals and knee levers actually do. On Your Particular Steel!
I'm quite sorry if I offended you, but consider this: Winnie was a friend. Since he can't speak for himself, I felt I'd do it for him. Right, wrong or inbetween, that's just me.
Again, please take no offense it was all said to help you and NOT to hurt you.
I wish you well in your playing endeavor.
But first and Foremost, sit back and completely READ the entire book, but don't just read it. Learn what you read as you go along. It's a continuous Learning Tool, and I must say a damn good one. If studied properly and learned in steps............ Nothing is wrong with "Great Speckled Bird"
The 8th string is R = Raised for a diminished run leading to the open D on the 10th fret. Very pretty run I might add. "A real nice lick within itself"
I would certainly hope you would post an apology for a mistake that was Yours and Yours alone. Not the Instruction.
All my best in your learning process..
Don |
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Gerald Shaw
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 1:02 pm
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| James Quillian wrote: |
| A good reputation as a musician does not justify doing sloppy work. The tablature in the back of this book is really bad in places. Parts of it do not come close to matching the music. In this book R means different things in different places. |
The tab is not 100% to the record in spots but it's not that bad. I imagined they recorded the arrangment the best they could recall it while playing it and at times deviated a bit.
Those are real nice arrangments and if you want it bad enough you'll put the time in to figure it out. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 1:25 pm
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Ray,
Read my above post. If you can't get anything out of that book, I'm sorry to say, it's not the book.
I might also add, the book is worth a whole lot more than you paid, if you had applied what was in the book!
I'd suggest reading my post above!
Why is it when folks buy things, and then because they can't get whatever it is, out of a product, (book in this case), that they'll go about putting down the iten in saying how bad the item is?
Why not admit it may be themselves, and NOT the item. (again book in this case)
And, pertaining to Winnie's & Bill's book, I know that's got to be the case.
I'm sorry, but there's been too many who've cut both, their baby teeth and molars using Winnie & Bill's Book.
The book remained the same throughout. Only the people attempting to use the book, changed..
May I suggest you re-read the entire thing, but again, not just read it, but study it in small steps. Learn from it, and I think you too will be apologizing for the negative replies.
All my best,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Don |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Oct 2012 1:32 pm
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Folks,
I'm sorry, but this really does trouble me.
When folks come on putting down that book, just take a look inside, and you're also putting down all of the Greats, who've read over that entire book and left their mark on it. And yes, that includes Buddy and a whole lot more.
That's really in bad taste, and I feel I have every right to be po'ed. That again is putting down each and every person that we all love and respect. In both, the living and the departed as well.
Sincerely,
Don |
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