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Topic: Learning from Paul Franklin samples |
Stuart Legg
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 11:36 am |
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Well my latest project is Paul Franklin Band in a Box.
Now this is not about band in a box but rather about Franklin’s playing and learning his samples.
Follow me here.
I enter the key as G with 100 bars of the Am chord , then I load a Paul (RT) solo and look at the notation to see how many different single bar samples and sequences that appear.
My thinking here is learn those samples and if it was good enough for BIAB it should be good enough here in the real world.
You may ask why the Am. In theory I wanted an A minor Dorian for rock which would be from a G major scale, not an Am relative to the C major scale which I would have gotten by setting the key to Am. I am not prepared to give you my findings in this regard at this time.
I’m running 100 bars of a lot of different chords and I’ve learn a lot of interesting things and a few sneaky tricks not on Franklin’s part but from BIAB.
For instance if you want cowboy funk set the key to F#m and program a 12 bar blues with all A chords and mute everything except Paul’s solo playing while you chord the blues in the key of A along with it..
If you don't have BIAB I'll be glad to share ideas I get from this project. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 11:45 am
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No - No Staurt ! That will never work if you plan on getting indicted to the Steel guitar hall of shame.
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Dickie Whitley
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 4:55 pm
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Last edited by Dickie Whitley on 13 Jun 2013 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 5:25 pm
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| I think he said playing steel is just a collage of little musical mental samples. By examining the players samples you can pick his brain and learn to play somewhat like that player within any given song. |
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Dickie Whitley
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 5:46 pm
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...
Last edited by Dickie Whitley on 13 Jun 2013 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 6:26 pm
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I notice a lot of triplets and 2 notes played as triplets like a shuffle. I think this is indicative of players who pick block. Everything tends to have a shuffle feel or close to a shuffle feel. I’m not knocking it. I just observed it from the samples.
It has been my experience to notice that palm blockers are not real crazy about triplets (that cross over or that thumb, thumb, finger picking a triplet just doesn‘t cut it). Again I’m not knocking it just observing it.
I do think that the palm blockers are much better at bars with clusters of 4 sixteenth notes than the pick blocker. The pick blocker tends to make 4 sixteenth notes sound almost like a 2 half beat shuffle.
I learned a lot from these samples and I haven’t even scratched the surface of the melody to a specific chord possibilities. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 8:13 pm
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Well Stuart I see you’ve been sent down from the bigs to the farm club. Steel Players to BIAB section.
I think you were Ace’d again.
So since I’m here let me take this opportunity to say if you are making a serious endeavor CD don’t use (RS) tracks with solo steel are any solo instrument for that matter because they suck.
It’s not that the picking isn’t good it is that the application of solo sampling as a solo within a song generated by BIAB is a joke and shouldn’t be even a consideration other than a novelty.
In fact let me say that with all it’s improvements BIAB is still a joke in any serious endeavor.
That is not to say it isn’t useful or you can’t learn from it.
Frankly I got as much out of it when it was all midi and you didn’t need to upgrade twice a year.
I’ve invested over a $1200 in BIAB over the years and believe me I haven’t gotten my monies worth.
You might say BIAB for me has been like a slow acting smart pill that finally kicked in and I've become smart enough to realize I'd be insane to upgrade it again for the rest of my life. |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2012 8:25 pm
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Ahh, the ole "f(x)" experiment, I get it now. Keep it goin guys, you'll get someone to bite I'm sure.  |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 31 Jul 2012 1:28 pm
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Since this topic has been moved from Steel Players to the BIAB section I made it about BIAB and gave you my conclusion regarding BIAB which has nothing to do with Stuart’s Topic.
There is no f(x) required here because Stuart hasn’t finished the experiment and no conclusion has been drawn regarding the topic of using Paul’s samples as a way of learning PSG and giving a person some idea of the number of samples necessary to adlib a solo at least equivalent to BAIB but with a little more taste. (how hard should that be).
I don’t know if he wants to continue it here but for what it’s worth Stuart did mention to me that there are not as many samples required as you would think since it is mainly a repetition of 2, 4 and sometimes 6 bar sequences. |
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Peter den Hartogh
From:
Cape Town, South Africa
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Posted 1 Aug 2012 1:02 am
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I have always wondered what the musicians hired by PG Music (BIAB) were required to play to make the samples.
I suppose these musicians are not allowed to reveal the procedures and they may have signed a confidentiality agreement.
So Stu's outcome of his research could be VERY interesting |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 11 Mar 2013 10:39 pm
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I auess we will never know! Stuart for whatever reason says there will be no further discussion regarding this on his part.
For some strange reason he has taken all the Franklin styles out of his BIAB and deleted all related files. Oh well! |
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Franklin
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Posted 14 Mar 2013 10:23 am
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| Peter den Hartogh wrote: |
I have always wondered what the musicians hired by PG Music (BIAB) were required to play to make the samples.
I suppose these musicians are not allowed to reveal the procedures and they may have signed a confidentiality agreement. |
Peter,
I was hired to play one bar licks over totally illogical progressions..Each track was about 6 minutes long and the following chords made no musical sense. Kind of like playing Giant Steps for the first time only there is a 100% more logic to its progression than what was presented to me....So nothing I played could be approached musically..Each track had to be recorded in six tonal centers which generally took a full session day per chord type.....A very mechanical approach.....I was basically loading the computer with stuff. Not musical soul or phrasing for expression, which is my total focus when I play, whether that's live or in the studio......The producer also thought I should play a lot of triplets. He identified them as part of my phrasing style..
BIAB's concern is to get lick samples so the program can time stretch those bar long licks into any key or time signature. From a musical standpoint that process breeds imperfection at best.....Most of the chords I played over only had a swing or dotted 8 feel, and some tracks had straight 8's....So its no wonder Stuart noticed a lot of dotted feel in the samples the computer chops and time stretches......The program has no taste and can and will grab a lick from anywhere in its memory and time stretch it to where it's internal timing almost works....Stu doesn't play and just analyzes what he hears. Unfortunately his analysis of what the BIAB program is churning out is wrong.....He has mistakenly attributed the software's time stretching to a blocking method..
Paul |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2013 4:52 pm
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I am relieved to read Paul's comments about recording for BIAB, as I was having a difficult time trying to relate it to his playing and teaching. I have all the latest BIAB and real tracks and I find it more trouble than it is worth, like Bo eluded to.
I guess it just isn't my deal. 
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 25 Jun 2013 8:50 pm
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I just now came back to this topic and noticed that Paul had enlightened us on the process of Real track steel in BIAB.
This will help me in the next Real tracks endeavor.
I really enjoy having Paul’s insight on the nuts and bolts of Real Track music in BIAB and other useful replies.
Sometimes I get it all wrong, sometimes I get parts of it wrong.
I realize that I can never get it all right but that doesn’t keep me from trying.
I really had no way of knowing that Paul had played in a way that was not his usual as per the project demands.
I don’t have the advantage of seeing the puzzle before it was cut into puzzle pieces and there was no picture on the box.
My little experiment projects are not destined for Scientific Journals nor do they have a requirement to have value here on the Forum.
It just amazes me how they become such a source of irritation. |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2013 9:29 pm
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I have never considered your comments irritating. Don't worry about it.[/url]
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 31 Oct 2013 2:27 pm Stepping out of the box
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| Stuart, I think you should be applauded for giving it a go with this Paul Franklin project. I always like it when someone "steps out of the box". Thanks, steve t |
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