Compensators

Francis Chamberlain · From: Franklin, KY, USA (deceased)

Compensators: Just how important are they? I understand that there are guitars with and without them.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

I have the lower return compensators on all 3 guitars.I would hate to have to play with out them.They really come in handy on any string that is raised and then lowered a full step or more.Also a must for the E's on E9.I have them on strings 2 4 5 6 and 10 on E9. Just my 2 cents.Make that 10 to 12 cents on strings 6 and 10.

bb

[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 14 March 2002 at 08:19 AM.]

Allen Peterson · From: Katy, Texas

What is a compensator?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Allen:
I think it's sposed to "compensate" for the cabinet drop effect when you start stomping your pedals. Supposedly, when you depress your pedals, the cabinet bows and your strings go flat. I've never really worried about it as I'm lucky to find the frets with my bar! I guess for the sticklers it's a real deal, though.
Uff-Da!

Earl Foote · From: Houston, Tx, USA

Compensators as I understand them, correct hysteresis error or the inability of a string that is lowered to return to proper pitch. I couldn't tell any difference either way (without a tuner) so I disabled all six compensators plus the anti-detuning mechanism on my LeGrande III. I could have saved myself a lot of $$ by just buying a stock LeGrande II or a S-10 push pull (which is what I ended up with anyway).

EF

P.S. What the heck is Uff-Da?

[This message was edited by Earl Foote on 14 March 2002 at 11:44 AM.]

Jeremy Moyers · From: Lubbock, TX

Earl is correct, they are used on strings that are both raised and lowered to insure that the string comes back intune properly. Some guitars do not need them as much as others.

Jeremy

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Earl:
You need to find a Norwegian dictionary and look up Uff-Da! It loses a lot in the translation.

Uff-Da!
P.S. Even though I'm a left-handed Norwegian, I still think I'm right about the cabinet drop and compensators. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 14 March 2002 at 02:20 PM.]

Allen Peterson · From: Katy, Texas

Thanks guys. I guess I must always play so out of tune that I never really noticed any problem with cabinet drop or a string not returning to pitch.

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Perhaps I need to be corrected. I have called (as well as installed) compensators on pedal steels for years. They are usually just an additional pulling train(s) added to pedals that, when depressed, are not as flat or sharp of an in-tune sound as you would prefer them to be. The slight raising or lowering of the pitch of a string (by use of the compensators) simply "compensate" for an out-of-tune sound of particular string voicings in a chord (when pedals are depressed or knee levers are engaged. Some strings just need to be "tweeked" a little when you want that "good" sound (the just tuning sound) after employing a particular pedal or knee lever. On the E9th tuning, compensators have been required on the F# strings of many guitars that don't detune. That has occurred because more recently manufactured steels don't detune as much as steels made, say in the '70s or '80s. Those early steels detuned sufficiently to make the E9th tuning actually more in tune because the F#s really needed to be "flattened" in order to sound in pitch (in the just tuned pitch). Newer steels don't have as much detuning, so the F#s actually need to be flattened more to "compensate" for the fact that they don't sound in tune, for example, when the A and B pedals are depressed. I have always felt that the E9th tuning survived because pedal steels detuned so much that they were better in tune (to the just tuned sound) than they would have been if those original steels didn't detune.

The hysteresis problem is an altogether different animal. That problem is corrected by having precision (ball bearing) nut rollers or no nut rollers at all (as on a keyless guitar, for example). I know that Bud Carter devised a nifty "truing" device that he could affix to the changer levers on MSA guitars. He finally discarded it since it wasn't always necessary and it was difficult to know which strings were going to have a hysteresis problem (although the 4th string (E) was the main culprit). That is because it was both raised and lowered and either returned sharp of pitch or flat of pitch depending upon which base point you chose to use in tuning it to its original pitch. It came down to getting a guitar with nut rollers that functioned perfectly (something that is really hard to accomplish consistently, unless you wanted to invest a lot of money in ballbearing nut rollers).

I would like to discuss this further if anyone wishes to post some additional thoughts. ...Tom

P.S.: Pardon the editing, but explaining my position wasn't easy.[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 14 March 2002 at 07:18 PM.]

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 14 March 2002 at 07:20 PM.]

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Glad to see you posting Tom!

Many times we need the voice of experience to straighten us out.

I have heard of compensators used for any and all of the above, so maybe the definition could be, "a rod or device that slightly corrects or changes the pitch of a string or strings."

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

Great to hear from you Tom.

I just added a compensator to my Zum S12U to bring string #6 back to pitch when pedal A is depressed. String #6 is the second G# and is right in the middle of the E9/B6 tuning. This note was dropping about 9-10 cents when the A pedal was engaged. Not much, but audible to me. I discussed this with other S12U players and the few I talked to said they thought it was more common on 12 strings, perhaps due to the wider bridge axle, plus the fact that it's not supported between strings as the old Sho-Bud and other makes are. I'd love to hear from others re: this problem, I seem to have it under control for the time being. I also have one attached to the lower on string #4 (E) and hooked to a cross brace on the guitar body. I think it prevents the E from coming back sharp after being lowered. It's factory installed.

--JR

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

There are several meanings of the word "compensator" in pedal steel lingo.

First, a compensator pull is one that pulls a string by a small amount to bring it in tune with notes that have been changed my the pedals. The most common of these is the technique of lowering the F# strings slightly on the A or B pedals, to bring them in tune with the A major chord.

Another kind of compensator is used to bring a return back to pitch. This is most common on the E strings, where the lower change typically returns sharp (the "hysteresis" effect). Keyless guitars don't have this problem, so they don't need this kind of compensator.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Francis Chamberlain · From: Franklin, KY, USA (deceased)

Now I'm a little confused...Some of the solutions to the problem: Install compensators on the pulls, Install compensators on the lowers, install ball bearings, install a keyless head. One or all of these should work, right????

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

It all depends on what you're trying to fix. Since you started this thread, do you have a specific problem? We can probably recommend a solution or hack if so.

Bill Crook · From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance

This is just a thought......

Many of us complain about the "cabinet drop" of the PSG. Some think it is the actual "cabinet", others say it's return springs,still others say it's combination of several stresses on the changer head.

My thoughts on this matter is:
No, it's really not the cabinet,or other mentioned parts,it's really the cross-bars the bell-cranks are attached to !!

Now as these cross-bars are (in most cases) made out of aluninumn stock,to be honest about it,not exactly airplane grade material, they have a tendency to give (bend) slightly as the pedals are depressed. When these bellcranks are in the middle of the crossbar,the deflection is at its worst. Eventho we tweak the nylon tuners to get to pitch, still the cross-bar bends a fraction. It don't take too much to drop a few cents as we know. I used to just rest my foot on the "A" pedal untill I begin to notice the difference it made. (Boy,is it hard to break old habits)

What I suggest is to make the cross-bars out of a hi-strenght steel stock. The "cabinet-drop" goes to almost "0". I helped a friend rework his PSG, replaceing just one cross-bar that he had the most "Cabinet drop" with and the problem went from 5-6cents drop to less than 1.5 cents. Im not too sure that if we had replaced the other 5 cross-bars that we would have gotten it down to less than .5 cents drop across the whole tunning range.

Just my 2 cents on the matter

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Bill, all guitars that I know of do use steel cross shafts. The cabinet drop that is talked about refers to the change in pitch of a non-pulled string. For example, if you step on P1 or any pedal that doesn't change the pitch of the 6th string G# (the most pitch sensitive string on E9 if using a plain string) the 6th string will drop in pitch slightly.

Cross shaft flex will affect the pitch when two pedals change the same string, such as P6 on a Universal. With the E's lowered to get into B6 mode, press and release P6. The 8th string D# will be flat due to shaft flex.

Jerry Fessenden and I have been discussing cabinet drop lately which has caused my old brain to recall the tests we did back in the old Dekley days. One theory we came up with is that the body flex is coming from the changer itself tilting a little bit due to the changing forces caused by the changing pitch of the strings.

A typical string is exerts about 30 lbs. of pull when up to pitch, so a 10 string guitar has about 300 lbs. of force on the changer.

Jerry is bringing my next guitar to the Dallas Show with a slightly different mounting mechanism for the changer. Preliminary tests show that the drop is not eliminated, but reduced somewhat.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

All the solutions presented may solve some of the problems in pedal steels, while all could be tried on some guitars and fail. This is a fine topic and the input is refreshing.

To definitely know that you have cabinet drop (detuning caused by the stress on, or failure by, the total super structure of your guitar), simply plug your tuner into the guitar, pick any string you want, then press down on the center of the cabinet slightly at first, then keep applying more pressure while watching the VU meter needle as you apply the increasing pressure. The needle should drop proportionately to the pressure you exert. Try this on a Fender 400 or 1000. No needle movement! No one since Leo Fender builds a steel like that any longer.

Here's another test. With your guitar tuned up nicely, check the pitch (with your tuner) of the 4th string (E) on your E9th. Write down the reading of the needle's position. Then, slack off every other string, eliminating all the tension of all but that E string. Now, check the needle's position of that E string on your tuner. It is probably at least 30 cents higher in pitch than the reading before you slacked off the rest of the strings. That is the amount of cabinet drop you have in your guitar! If you choose to go the other direction (tune the E string to pitch, then tightened up all the other strings), you should get the same deviation amount, but flat of its in-tune pitch before you tuned up the rest of the strings.

I'd like to know the cabinet drop amounts of a number of current guitar brands. I suspect that most have 30 or more cents of deviation for their cabinet drop. It might be an interesting exercise that could lead to a better understanding of what cabinet drop is all about.

To John Russell: I recently had the identical problem you mentioned, but on an original (1985) MCI. I ultimately added a compensator pull to the A pedal (B's to C#) so as to slightly increase the pitch of the 6th string (A). I did this after adding a 3/16" steel apron to the front of the guitar as well as a stress bar (ala Red Rhodes' idea) across the middle of the cabinet's underside. I drilled out the steel apron to accommodate the cross shafts. This meant cutting away a like amount of the wood in the backside of the front apron. This was a big job, but I saw no other way of reducing the cabinet drop in this guitar (which was intolerable). That still wasn't quite enough, so I added a 1" square steel stress bar. I went down the center of the guitar and was mounted to one endplate and then bolted to the changer end about 3 inches away from the changer-end endplate. Once in place I placed a 1/2" inch bolt under the center of it and turned the nut so as to press against the steel stress bar. I probably "jacked" that bar out about 3/8 of an inch. You could easily see the bow in it because of expanding that bolt between the cabinet's underside and the bar's center. All that effort eliminated nearly all the cabinet drop in the guitar. The owner was happy with about a 4 cent drop that was still in that 6th string. However, I then added the compensator to the B pedal and "tweeked" that 6th string up to where that was no drop in its pitch. The owner was then happier than a possum' eating ... well, you know.

Every guitar I have encountered that had intolerable cabinet drop was caused by the cabinet, not anything on it that was metal. Then again, maybe I just failed to discover a problem with the cross shafts, changer, etc. was truly creating the problem.

I once had a player complain bitterly about an all-steel S-12 Sierra that Don Christianson had built. Frankly, I didn't see the problem as big as the guitar's owner did. However, the customer complained sufficiently to Don to get him to replace all the aluminun cross shafts with ones made of stainless steel. It didn't change a thing! The fellow sold the guitar in disgust. Frankly, I thought he was asking too much. Somebody else got a fine guitar.

Surely I'm like all of you: I learn something new every time I work on a pedal steel. ...Tom

richard burton · From: Britain

A problem I have encountered when I have strengthened the cabinet with steel bracing etc is a distinct loss in tone. IMHO it is better to use compensating rods, or change from a .22 plain string to a .22 wound on the sixth, as this is the worst string affected by cabinet drop

John Russell · From: Austin, Texas

Tom, that sounds like something Jerry Blanton told me he once did to a guitar, what brand I don't recall.

I'll try that pressure on the cabinet technique. The Zum has an aluminum plate attached to the inside of the front apron. It's about 3" by 1/4" by the length of the guitar, held in place by some 20 large screws. It's drilled for holes that mount the cross shafts and the pedal stops (posts that stop the travel of the pedals.) I presume it's to counteract cabinet drop. I had heard in a thread on this forum but a few years ago, some opined that cabinet drop was caused by the changer axle and not the cabinet, or maybe not necessarily by the cabinet. That's why I made the comment about the axle changer, not out of any careful experimentation.

The compensator absolutely eliminated the drop on string 6. I now have to decide if I really need it for some of the other strings, i.e. 4 and 5. They drop less than 6 did so I'll probably live with that. It's not that audible to me.

I figure so many great players sound wonderfully in tune with guitars much like mine, they work around the issue via their technique. Maybe I can too!

BTW, weren't the old Fenders carved from a single block of wood and bolted into an aluminum frame?

--JR

Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

Here's a few basic questions:

It's been explained what compensators do, but what are they? Mr. Bradshaw described them as "extra pulling trains." Are they just simple springs? How, specifically, are they installed? Can a guy make one himself?

Thanks,

Jeff S.

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

To John: The metal plate you have on your guitar is typical of most all well-made pedal steels. It is part of the frame and adds strength to the instrument. It is far stronger than simply mounting the cross shafts to the wooden cabinet. The MCI I mentioned in my post (above) had a front apron that was 3/4" wood. I cut away 3/16" from the inside of that wooden front apron and installed a steel plate that was 3/16" thick, about 3" wide, and ran the full length of the guitar. I drilled it to accommodate the cross shafts, utilized nylon bushings for the bearing surfaces of the cross shafts going into the metal plate, and then bolted everything securely to the guitar's cabinet and endplates.

To Jeff: I got the same inquiry from another fellow and explained it this way (which is very basic and not intended to imply that you don't know some of this. Others may be reading this who are not aware of some of the nomenclature): From all the floor pedals on your guitar, you will see that a "pedal rod" attaches to those pedals and accends to the underside of the guitar (to a connecting point right behind the front apron). They are there connected to a form of a bell crank, which in turn, is bound to a cross shaft on the guitar. On that cross shaft are additional "pullers" that are also called bell cranks (since they function as a turning bell does; rotating just about 30 degrees). Connected to these particular bell cranks are rods (called changer rods). They extend toward the changer and cause the changer levers either to lower a string or raise a string's pitch. All of these parts: the bellcrank, the rod connected to it, and whatever items are used at the changer end of the guitar (pulling tubes, nylon tuning nuts, etc.), are all commenly referred to as "pulling trains."

To obtain a "compensation pull," you typically obtain another complete pulling train. You add another bell crank to the pedal's cross shaft, you add another changer rod, and finally add whatever is needed to actuate the changer lever of the string you want to be "trued" to sound in tune with the other strings. Typically, it is just a very, very small correcting of the detuning that occurred when you depressed some pedal(s) that led to the string sounding out of tune with the rest of the strings (and made you want to scream bloody murder). Sometimes a couple of pulling trains have to be added because there are more than one string that seems out of tune with the final voicing of the whole complement of strings.

Thus, and in yet another way of explaining it, a compensator is nothing more than an extra pulling train that has been added to the cross shaft of a particular pedal. That pulling train connects with some other desired string, via its changer lever, and alters the pitch of whatever string you want to alter (usually just slightly). These "compensators" result in some string (that annoys you because they seem slightly out of tune) being brought to a pitch that makes it sound more in tune with the rest of the strings on your guitar.

As I mentioned on my previous Forum post, the most common strings that have compensators altering their pitch slightly, are the F# strings on an E9th. That is because when you engage the A & B floor pedals (and change the basic E9th chord into an A6th chord), those strings seem out of tune with the rest of the complement of strings. I usually add one of the compensators to the A pedal and one on the B pedal. That way, when the pedals are depressed separately, there isn't much additional resistence added to either pedal.

Players who don't have compensators on their guitars typically tune their F# strings flat to begin with (in the E9th mode). If they don't, when they do depress pedals A & B, they discover that their F#s are just too sharp to sound in tune.

For players who don't have compensators on their guitars already (on their E9th tuning), I recommend that they avoid tuning the F#s at all. Once they get the rest of the E9th tuned up, I tell them to depress their A & B pedals, bringing all their strings (except the F#s) to the pitch that is in tune. Then, I advise them to finalize the A6th chord by tuning their F# strings at the tuning pegs to bring them to an in-tune sound with the complete A6th chord (that they then have across most all of the strings of their guitar). Everyone knows that F#s are the 9th tones in an E9th chord, but become 6th tones in an A6th chord (when pedals A & B are depressed). Being able to tell that a 9th tone is out of tune in any chord is much harder than recognizing that a 6th tone is out of tune in a true 6th chord. Most players can get along fine with a 9th tone that is flat. But, they go crazy if they hear a 6th tone that is out of tune.

If you understand this, I'm happy. If I'm still not clear, please post other questions and I'll try to clarify it better. ...Tom

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 21 March 2002 at 02:04 PM.]

Jeff A. Smith · From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.

Tom-

That is a VERY clear and thorough explanation. Thanks a bunch. I guess the number of compensators can't exceed the number of available raise or lower holes on the changer? The reason I ask is that I remember someone on here seeming to say that they had done something to get more pulls than usual on a given string. Is there some way of getting more than two raises for a 4th string (as an example) on a double-raise, double-lower guitar?

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Hmmm, I wonder.....when considering "cabinet drop...just how much of it comes from heavy-footed steel players that are really distorting their guitars by applying extra pressure to foot pedals that are attached to bell cranks already at full stop? Wouldn't that tend to flex the guitar down towards the pedal, thus making the guitar "U" shaped somewhat..shortening the length between changer and nut? If that's so, would a pedal stop UNDER THE PEDAL instead of at the bell crank prevent this problem....just food for thought.......

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Oh, yea, and btw...nice to hear from you Tom....long time no see....still miss SG record club, but b0b has done well as a pinch hitter with this forum.....

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

Gil: You are absolutely correct!!!! I have worked on steels where players have complained bitterly about the amount of cabinet drop. When I get the guitar I discover that they apparently want such short pedal travel that, for me, I would have to nearly stand on the pedals to get them to actuate the pulls on the changer (I'm not a big person, but they have all been big mothe...oops, better not say that!). I've explained to them that they would have to give up the extremely short pedal stroke to get away from their cabinet drop. Then, after adjusting the linkage on, usually, all their pedals so that it is much, much easier, to my surprise, they then claim that they really don't detect much difference in the pedal travel and they were now quite happy with the fact that the guitar detunes much less. This never ceases to amaze me. So, I applaud you for making me think of this player-created problem with cabinet drop.

Jeff: Yes, there are ways to stick in more compensators when you have all your available changer lever holes filled with other pulling trains. You need double-raise (or lowering) changer "inserts." I'll drop Fred Layman an email and alert him to this thread topic. He once posted the article here on the Forum that I published in a Newsletter that accompanied selections of my old Steel Guitar Cassette Club (1982 or '83). In that article, Winnie Winston did the drawings that showed how the inserts worked. Fred may be able to tell us where to look in the archives of the old Bar Chatter thread to find it. So, sit tight and I'll get him to post this information. ...Tom

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 21 March 2002 at 02:39 PM.]

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