Push Pull VS Pull

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Aloha ya'll,
I just returned to PSG after a 34 year break. I was wet behind the ears and my brain was definately mushy way back then ( just semi soft now) and don't know any of the changing systems, how they operate and their plus and minus features.
Can someone direct me to older posts that will help me understand all of this before I purchase a new steel.
Do I want to tackle a U12 or go with a Double 10?
Where do I find U12 instruction and lessons?
What are bell cranks and what do they do?
Are pull systems better than push/pull systems?

So much to learn before I part with my hard earned cash.Currrently geting my chops back with lap steels so I'll be ready for pedals in a couple of months.
thanks,

George McCan
Sawdust Supervisor

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Hi George,

That's a pretty tall order there. No one can, or should, tell you what you will like. They can only tell you what they like, based on their personal experience.

The best advice I could give would be to dig into the forum search feature. Try various search terms and sift through the results to find what you want. Then, once you have some background info, you could ask more pointed questions.

There will be many, many opinions as to what's best, so take everything with a grain of salt. The bottom line is to visit a steel store that has lots of different steels and try them out. It's the only way to know which one turns you on.

Be patient, and do your research. You will feel very rewarded by the knowledge you find.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Easy question first: bellcranks are the gizmos that attach to the crossrods that the pullrods attach to.
U-12 vs. D-10? strictly a matter of taste, with one caveat from the last few years: a U-12 will require additional pedals or clustered knees to include two Franklin-inspired common changes (Strings 1&2 now get pulled to unison with 3&4; another pedal drops 5&6 a whole tone), and some extra C6 changes have become increasingly common.
Currently there are two tunings commonly called Universal: E9/B6 and the Bb6: I think the Bb6 looks more interesting, I plan to try it ASAP. I've not tried to find universal instructional materials. Watch this space for edits as I employ my Google-fu.

Update 1: I could find no Bb6 instructional material after a brief googling.

Update 2: similar luck on E9/B6. But this is of lesser consequence as you can use E9 and C6 stuff, although you won't promote "universal" thinking that way.

Currently, Promat is the only one making push-pull, and they're kinda pricy.
Bob Simmons still makes a pull-release guitar, but I bet he'd rather make you an all-pull.
Many folks like push-pull and pull-release tone better, but they're harder to monkey with if you wanna change things later (to make dumb equipment do clever things, you gotta be clever yourself: you can get 10&10 in a push-pull or a pull-release, but the underside is gonna look Rube Goldberg)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

What styles of music do you want to play?

What kind of tone do you want? Bright and clear, like most Nashville recordings, or softer, more muted tone, like sometimes heard on Jazz or Hawaiian tunes?

How important is the weight of the steel in its case to you?

Don't get hung up on the push-pull versus all pull changer thing. I play a push-pull, and I love it, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone that hasn't played in 35 years, and is essentially just starting out.

How much money do you have to invest in a steel guitar? Around $1,000 to $1,500 will get you a very good steel to start out, but you could easily spend a lot more. I've heard a lot of good things about the Stage 1 brand, but I've never actually seen or played one.

Bell cranks are the thingy-bobbers that connect the rods (whether push-pull or all pull) to the cross shafts.

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Thanks guys,

Mostly play guitar, dobro, with some Mandolin and fiddle thrown in just to fool folks into thinking i know what I'm doing. There isn't a lot of country music here. Tons of Hawaiian/Jerry Byrd style music. I had an early new 70's MCA double 10 that I picked up from Tom Bradshaw at a ShowBud steel show in Santa Cruz Calif. $1000.00,even, including tax, those were the days...

I've followed some of the Zane King threads from June 2010 and am intriged, my spelling sucks,with his and the Bb tunings ya'll have been talking about.
Currently Im using the leavitt tuning on a Harlow Dobro and C6 on a George Board 8 sting lap steel.
I love the jazzy tone of the Leavitt tuning and love what you can do with the C6 tuning. It has been so long since I've played these styles that I am in heaven even when grinding out the long practice sessions, especially the Joe Wright exercises. I'm slowly picking up the pick blocking and enjoying the sound. I'll definately need a PSG within 3 or 4 months. There seems like there are some decent used steels offered here and I'm checking out all of the manufacturers lists by the forum.
I haven't located any other pedal steel pickers on Maui. Lot of good lap steel players though. I won't have much PSG instruction locally to help me along. I'm so green that I've thought it might not be a disadvantage to try the U12 or Bb12 tone as I haven't learned enough E9th/C6 habits to lock me into strickly thinking about those copendants.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

One other note about instructional stuff for the universal tunings: on Bb6 it would not surprise me if Reece had some, given that he's been teaching since, umm, forever.
I thought Junior Knight had some, David Wright says he teaches E9 and he plays Bb6. Therefore, he probably teaches his preferred tuning.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Paul, Zane

Both of you gave me plenty to think about.
I'm 65 and although I run and exercise regularily I don't want to carry around a heavy D10, therefor thinking about the U12. Don't want to be locked into just the E9th single neck as I do Like jazz tones.

GFI has a light U12 guitar and haven't read enough to know what ya'll think about them. William and BMI are beautiful and seem to have great reputations.
A builder in Florida is offering a 2008 S12 that was his demo for $2500.00 but I don't know anything about his instruments. Jackson is offering a 2011 Randolf played U12 for a great price. There is a lot out there right now.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

George: In light of your desire to include some jazzy styles, and keep the weight down, I would suggest a Universal 12 string; perhaps a keyless if you don't mind the non-traditional appearance. I have no experience with any of the brands you have mentioned, so can't be specific.

If I get to the point where I can't transport my D-10 any longer, I would probably be shopping for a GFI U-12, keyless. Or perhaps that very interesting looking BMI push-pull, keyless, U-12.

Regards. Paul

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Thanks Paul& Zane,
Think I'll email GFI and BMI and find out costs with all of the necessary bells and whistles. Shipping to Maui is not cheap either.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Promat isn't the only push-pull....at least according to the web catalog...

http://www.emmonsguitar.net/pushpull.htm

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Yes, but as he's considering a choice between U-12 and D-10, an S-10 doesn't help.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Really ??

Ransom Beers · Posted 2 Jan 2012 6:44 am

There is/was a Carter 12 on the "For Sale" section of this forum,maybe you should chk. it out.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Ken, the OP stated that he has not been around pedal steel for 34 years.
In that time, the two "franklin pedals" have become relatively common on the E9th neck. In addition, many c 6 players raise at least one C to C#, many drop at least one A.
If 1 wanted to incorporate many of the new changes, It would not be hard to find the guitar very well loaded down. In fact, I think I could easily see me having 10 by 6.
I don't think the days of 7 X 5 are over, but I would fully expect the number of changes to increase on the U-12 as they have on E9 and C6.
At least that is my thinking and why I said that. Make sense?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Push pull vs all pull is not an issue a beginner should waste much time thinking about. If haven't played in 30-odd years you are a beginner.

A good player will play well on ANYTHING -- a 2x4 with strings stretched across it and a pickup. If you aren't solid on the basic tuning with no pedals and levers you'll never use all the bells and whistles to your greatest advantage. Even on E9, just learn to play a major scale using only bar movement. Learn to find every major/minor/Dom7/Ma7/mi7 chord in two or more places. Learning where the right notes are and how to make them sound beautiful is the first objective.

WAAAAAY too much is made over having to have this change or that change to play well. Bulloney! Believe me, most of the experienced road, session, and even local players in many areas will blow you away with a single 10 with 3 pedals and 4 levers (or even LESS).

If you haven't played in many years you'll need to recoup your chops first -- that will take several months just to hit the right strings with the picks and regain your intonation with the bar. Putting the cart before the horse will only slow you down. If you have some natural aptitude and ability it will come back faster and playing lap steel and/or reso will also help but the first task is to learn to make ONE NOTE SOUND EXCELLENT. Then play a phrase, then a simple melody, then harmonize it. You don't really need any fancy changes to do that AND if you can't do that, you are just wasting your time trying to learn something you're not really ready for.

Just my take on it. You can't add enough pedals and levers to make up for a lack of cockpit time. A 3x4 E9 guitar already HAS C6 there. Lower your E's to D# and play 1 (skip over 2 and 3), 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 at the first fret. That's 7 strings of C6. Don't like C6? Prefer A6? That's there too -- just use A+B.

It ain't the meat -- IT'S THE MOTION.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Absolutely! I don't need those changes, I would just want them.
For that matter, I am the guy who went to a jam session with almost no rods on the C6 neck last night. Played it lap style, except the RKL raising 3 &7 a half tone.
Although I have to admit that I find the notion of E9 as a popular lap steel tuning puzzling (I thought I'd read it was back when). I came from the GBDGBD and G6 Dobro world, so a lap steel doesn't intimidate me, but sans pedals, that just frustrated me every time I've tried ...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Lane
You said a U-12 will require...
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Larry You are right!! It's your chops that make your tone and style unique. That is why I'm working on my chops at least 2 hours a day. Need to get that loose and easy motion back. As you said I've got at least a 3 month woodshedding project in front of me just to feel that I know my way around on the fret board. Being older I know what I want to do, I want to play Pedal Steel Guitar with the best of ya'll. Because I live in the middle of the Pacific.The cost of shipping etc., and lack of local instruction helps me lean toward a steel purchase that I'll enjoy relearning my chops on and that will be advanced, design and quality wise, to be one of my soulmates for the next 20 years. I can afford a quality guitar. I've hand buit 10 acoustic and 10 electric guitars plus three dobros. I'm currently building a double 6 string non pedal steel console. I'm looking forward to this challenge.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

OK, require probably overstated things, but I suspect David Wright ain't the only one adding Franklin pulls to his universal.
And I think my point yesterday (sorry, slightly ADD or I just don't recall my frame of mind when I said it) was something like: "if you're the kind of guy who wants to add all the latest pulls, a Universal will quickly run out of expansion slots to put them, while on a D-10 you can make pedals work both necks to accommodate more."
I still believe that to be true. I arrived at that 10 by six number merely by taking the Bb6 tuning, adding the C pedal, the F lever and the 1st and 2nd string raise.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Larry - Email sent to you.
thanks

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

George,

If you could find the right "fit" perhaps you could put someone up at your place on Maui for a week or so in exchange for a period of lessons each day!

I love the island! (Not qualified as an instructor, though Crying or Very sad

).

Ray Anderson · From: Jenkins, Kentucky USA

Larry you silver tounged deliberater, that was well stated and contained more truth than a politicians speech, +1. Whoa!

. Now what is that old addage about a mouse trap? I believe, ain't the trap, just the simplicity of it. I am a Nooby, and in my 13 months of "Noodling" certainly wasn't playing by any standard, was spent on Scale, Chord Formation, grips, pedal-knee-bar and ear exercises. Some things just can't be rushed. THIS is one of them.JMHO. Wink

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Every pedal steel guitar is a compromise.

No D-10, or even D-12, can handle every pedal change you might want. A fully loaded D-10 will have more changes than a fully loaded U-12, but you can't transition as quickly from one style to another on the D-10/12. Plus the double neck will surely weigh more, all other factors being equal. Etc., Etc., Etc.

We all have to decide what compromises we want to make. There is no single correct answer.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Ray, you are a wise man. Most can't resist that temptation to spend every minute learning song after song and reinforcing bad technique. Finding useful chord grips and learning to play them with authority using available pedals and levers will do more for your progress than learning 100 songs from tab.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I have a S12 push-pull with 6x6. When I got it I decided I would learn all the Black Album tunes as much note for note as possible -- both the E9 and C6. I can no longer play them all, and I especially concentrated on the C6 tunes (At E's, Raisin' the Dickens, Bundle of Rags, that stuff) but the guitar easily handled all the changes from those songs and that's A LOT OF MUSIC -- theory and practice. I have other guitars with 8x8 on one neck and the other stuff that's there is nice, but not really necessary.

If a U12 player wants to play jazz I see little difference between B6 and Bb6 -- in fact just a HALF STEP. Smile

If you play with horn players Bb6 is probably better for the open tuning.

I do play a lot of sixth tuning stuff, but, as a guitar player first, I relate more readily to E9 positions. I chose E as the principal root (rather than B) because E9 is and has always been my bread and butter tuning. Plus, when you are tuning 4 and 8 to D# and you want D#, E, F, and F# on the 4th string (in other words, you want a C pedal) and have to hold a lever (D# to E) to play most any E9 stuff, the advantage on the sixth tuning side is outweighed. Especially when you spend 3/4 of the night (or more) playing E9 style.

THERE IS NO REASON WHY A U12 PLAYER CAN'T HAVE 10 or more knee levers -- Julian did from time to time. You can have a center bank of levers like a C6 player and some U12 players do. I'm used to 5 left levers and it works fine for me so I choose not to have to move my left knee to play B6.

Paul,
You are absolutely right -- every choice includes a compromise or two.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

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