1970 Emmons D10 push Pull troubles.

Wallace Smith · From: Georgia, USA

I have an Old Emmons D10 Which I got from my deceased brothers wife a few years ago. I am not a steel player by any stretch of imagination. But I want to learn as much as I can and maybe someday be able to play some simple accompaniment I have tried in vain to get this beast set up properly. I have read all I could find on the subject. I cannot get the 4th string changes on the E9th neck to work. If I get the raise and open to work, then the lower to E flat is off. If I get the lower to work. It will not reach the raise to F sharp. I think I understand how it's all supposed to work.I have been through all the postings about these type problems I can find including The Wilderness guide and all the other stuff. I just can't make it work right. Is there anyone willing and able to fix this thing for hire? I am in North West Georgia about the same latitude as Atlanta. I am willing to drive it to someplace to get it fixed. The steel has a great tone. It has some rods which I'm sure aren't original. They look like welding filler rods to me and some of the collars have different size set screws, like it's all been put together with scavenged parts. It's a 1970 model according to Carter's list. Thanks for any suggestions.

Wally

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

yes someone has it out of wack for sure. are you sure you know how to tune a push/pull they are different then an all pull. you have to tune your raises first what this means hold your pedals down tune at the keyhead all your raises at keyhead. for the strings that dont lower tune at the tail in I think top screw not sure on that one but it wont matter if the strings not lowering. now push your lower and also tune at the tail end I think thats the bottom screw I may have them mixed up but thats about how you tune a push/pull now if you get it where you think its in tune and it dont seem to raise up to the F# reach under the guitar and push the finger to make sure it is against the body your pedal travel may be off and thats a big head ache for sure if you do reach under the guitar and find that you can push it more then adjust your pedal but if you cant push it more then you dont have enoughb travel and will have to start over again look at the two screws find out what one is against the finger back it out. then start the tuning all over again
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Buddy Castleberry · From: HAWKINSVILLE GA USA - R.I.P.

WALLACE IF YOUR CLOSE TO HAWKINSVILLE GA I CAN SET IT UP PH NO 478-230-8867

Ricky Hagan · From: Elm City N.C. U.S.A.

Call Billy Knowles,I promise you he can fix it for you.

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

First make sure your changer is in tune. Then do your lower on that string first. You might have to move the raise collar away from the bell crank to give enough travel for the lower. It could be as much as a quarter inch away from the bell crank. Then tune your raise and then the E to F change last. It can be a real hair-puller but it will work.
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2013 Williams D-10, 2019 Williams D-10, 1970 Fender Twin, Evans SE200, Fender Tonemaster Twin, Hilton pedal, Jagwire Strings.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Wallace Smith · From: Georgia, USA

Thanks to all who replied. Craig and Tony; I think I have done that, but I will try it once again before I give up. I know that the changer should be tuned independent of the collars first. But maybe I missed something about the lower push to E flat needing to be set first.

To Ricky Hagan:

Where is Billy Knowles located?

To Buddy Castleberry:
I may call you if I can't get it right pretty soon. I really would like for someone who knows what they are doing to set the whole thing up properly. You are about 2 hours drive from me.

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

If everything else is working OK, but the string won't quite lower far enough, the first thing to check is the lower return spring. These are the springs near the changer, right next to the underside of the body, underneath the pull rods. It may need a little more tension. You have to loosen the collar and pull out the spring a bit, then tighten the collar.

Ricky Hagan · From: Elm City N.C. U.S.A.

Billy is located in Kenansville NC

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

Wallace,
Don't forget to slack off the Lever stops!.Also, the collar on the pull rod on string 4, C pedal, needs to be carefully placed...... maybe loosen it, get the 4th lower/raise tuned, and then go back to the 4th string raise on the C pedal..... There need to be a slight play between the collar and the bellcrank, which allows the drop on the lever to get in tune.
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Skype : nidutoit

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

LOL..I had the same problem with my Promat once, I tried for 3 days to do it myself, finaly, i lost my patience and took it to Bobbe at SGN, Bobbe didn't even bother to take guitar out of the case, he opened the case and fixed the problem in about 30 sec...LOL ...I felt little stupid but hey, I'm not by any means a push pull guru...

Db
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Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Tune the changer 1st as stated. Now that your lowers have been tuned. Make sure the knee lever is doing what it should to lower the string to pitch. Most likely it's one or both of the 4th string raises that's holding you off. Remember both the raise finger and the lowing member must go back to the stop. If the lowering member is reaching the stop and the raise finger is not. Then the pull rod needs more slack. Ether from the C pedal or E's to F 4th string raise. And or both.

If the lowering member is not reaching the pre-tuned stop. Then you need more travel in the knee that lowers string 4. But 1st check to make sure the rod collar for the 4th string lowering rod is tight. Make sure the 4th string lowing bellcrank is tight on the shaft. Also. If the 8th string lower is reaching it's stop first, and has no compression spring. This can keep the 4th string from lowering enough.

Once you get the lowers to pitch and timed.
Then go to work on your 4th string raises.
Hope this helps.
bb

Wallace Smith · From: Georgia, USA

Thanks Bobby. I have managed to get the 4th string to tune now but just barely. In fact it will just barley tune to the open, raise, and lower with all collars disengaged.
Makes me wonder if something is wrong with the fingers or something. I did manage to tune it, but then was not able to get the 5th string raise on the C pedal in tune without affecting the 4th. I am ready to take this thing to someone who knows what they are doing. I obviously don't!

A big thanks to all who tried to help me on this. I learned a lot from you.

God bless you all
Wally

I think it needs a complete set up on all changes.[/quote]

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Jan 2011 8:12 pm

Wallace,

Im in Nashville, Tennessee and a factory authorized dealer and repair station for Emmons Guitars and have been since 1987. Please feel free to contact me @: 615-446-5952. Im sure I can straighten it out for you.
sincerely,

MC

Wallace Smith · From: Georgia, USA

OK, after many hours of trying to get it playable, I finally gave up and sent it to Mike Cass. That turned out to be a good move. He has made it as good as new, maybe better. And it sounds and plays great. I reccomend Mike Cass for your steel guitar repairs.
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1970 Emmons PP, Evans 500 LV, Roland Ready Strate, Roland GR 50,Ovation Acoustic Electric, Gibson J200, Peavey reno 400, Digital Performer based home recording studio. Mac Pro 8 core computer.Allen Heath Mixers. Many more gadgets with lot's of knobs to twiddle.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

what was the problem?

Wallace Smith · From: Georgia, USA

It needed some parts replaced, a complete overhaul of the mechanics and a knee lever added. It came back good as new.
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1970 Emmons PP, Evans 500 LV, Roland Ready Strate, Roland GR 50,Ovation Acoustic Electric, Gibson J200, Peavey reno 400, Digital Performer based home recording studio. Mac Pro 8 core computer.Allen Heath Mixers. Many more gadgets with lot's of knobs to twiddle.

John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

I agree Mike is the man.Picked one of mine up a few weeks ago and it is like a brand new guitar.

Mike Cass · Posted 21 Apr 2011 1:15 pm

Wallace,

thanx for the kind words, and you too John!

Wallace hasnt mentioned what a unique guitar he has; an early 70's flat-back, metal neck p/p with a 2 color mica finish scheme....rosewood top w/satin black front and back! Certainely all original and unique for that time frame.

The real issues with Mr. Smith's guitar were age/use induced wear and grime, a number of off-brand parts having been added over the years to facillitate a rather unique copedant involving some of the C6 changes being added on the left E9 knee levers, and a damaged C6 pickup, among other issues.

Mechanically and sonically it came out just fine, and after some Blue Magic metal cleaner and elbow grease it does indeed look like a near new instrument.

Its such a pleasure to work on these guitars because you always know that under the dirt etc, there's a jewel just waiting to be uncovered Wink

Since we're on the subject of repair Id like to offer my fellow forumites some additional info;
...for years now Ive also done repair/restorations on a number of other brands as well; Sho-Bud, ZB, Carter, Zum, Marrs, GFI, EMCI, MCI, MSA, Dekley,etc.
Most folks know me as mainly an Emmons guy but I have done a considerable ammont of work on these other makes of steel guitars as well. When I took the job with RP in 2003 I scaled back to mainly working on the Emmons guitars for reasons of time, parts availability, etc. But since I quit working the road I have bought out another vendors considerable parts inventory covering most all these brands. While I try not to sell parts per-se as a sideline to my primary business, I am again able to offer an enhanced repair/restoration service with regards to brands other than Emmons. So if that 'Bud, etc. over in the corner is beggin' for some TLC please contact me and I'll take good care of it for you Smile

thanx again guys and enjoy!
sincerely,

MC

mwillsteel@comcast.net

Greg Moody · From: Branson Missouri, USA

Mike did a great job on both my pushpulls about 7 yrs ago and they have held up very well.I use them 6-days a week for a 9 month season here in Branson.I was in nashville for only 3 days and he knocked them out for me in that short time.Thanks again Mike.

Mike Cass · Posted 21 Apr 2011 11:59 pm

My pleasure Greg! good to hear from you Smile

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Mike Cass

You forgot to mention that you have a lot of experience working on JCHs and Marlens too.

I cannot remember how many pedal steels Mike has restored or worked on for me, but I am always very pleased I went to the trouble to ship them to him. I can take apart a push pull and put it back together with my eyes closed. But I cannot make them sound as great as they do after they leave Mike Cass' shop.

Mike has always done superior work, at a fair price and in a very timely manner, and is honestly the only one I would trust a 1964 Wraparound with because Mike shows particular sensitivity to using correct parts.

For example, Mike is putting knee levers put on Emmons Number Two right now -- Mike is putting on correct 1964 Emmons knee levers. I guarantee no one else can supply those rare parts. Heck, name an Emmons "repair expert" who even knows what a 1964 Emmons knee lever looks like.

You are the best, Mike. Thank you for all you have done for my pedal steels, Mike. I hope to always have a guitar on one of your benches.

Chris Lucker
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I'm a good PP mechanic. I have worked on a bunch and I understand what makes them go and no one would be unhappy with my work.

Mike set up my first PP, before I knew anything about them, and that one is about 5 to 10 % better than any of the ones that I have done.... I don't know why, but I do believe in magic and mojo and all of that stuff. Mike has it.

Roger Guyett · From: San Francisco, Ca.

He's the man.
Does really great work - and a total straight shooter.

He just did a beautiful job of restoring my 79 Push-Pull.

Mike Cass · Posted 27 Apr 2011 10:26 am

thanks again guys for the kind words!
Ive been offline a few days and just now saw these new posts.
Chris, you have a fine stable of vintage steel guitars and Im proud to have helped you in restoring them.
Mike N., long time no see. Hope alls well with you and yours.
Roger, Have you given any more thought to that tuning gear fix we discussed? That particular size material is available so lmk.
sincerely,

MC

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