Sho-Bud fixed, Jon Light is the man

Zachary Walters · From: Maryland

I've searched heavily for a prior mention of this but I'm getting desperate, I'm trying to get a 1978 Pro II ready for my show Saturday.

Unlike most other folks I've read about who have the problem of a string returning flat after stepping on/off a raise pedal, or returning sharp after a lower... my problem is the native pitch of the strings being pulled FLAT (never sharp), once I step off the pedal after tuning the raises and lowers.

Example: Emmons setup, with the native pitch of all strings precisely in tune, if I go to the C6 and pick pedal 5 to tune the lower on string 5 and raises on strings 9 and 10, by the time I get all three changes tuned and disengage pedal 5, those strings are flat. The same thing happens with a few different pedals/strings, and the real killer is on E9 when I try to tune the RKL/pedal B split for string 6.

I've tried fully backing off all nylons and doing these tunings all over again, no dice. I lightly oiled the roller nuts with Tri-Flow after changing strings, nothing changed. And it's not a new string-stretching issue... they are PLENTY stretched. I took some pictures up close of everything on my guitar, if it's of any help:
http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h3/zowalters/2011-01-11%20ShoBud/
The body and hardware are all original as far as I know.

Thx in advance for any help,
Zach
_________________
1981 Push-Pull
2009 Super Glide Custom

Benjamin Jayne · From: Orange County California, USA

Hi Zach-
I'm pretty new at this too, and I think I've experienced what you speak of, only on my 4th string (E9). fter tuning 4th string (E), then C pedal (Raise), then D lever (raise) open E is still in tune, but when I tune the LKR to lower the E to Eb, I release the LKR and the E has fallen flat. If I back off the nylon tuner of the LKR lower a bit, the E comes back in tune-it's only when I cross a certain threshold that it pulls the open string flat-does this happen to you? I have no problem raising the 4th string with LKL, but for some reason, my 4th string cannot be in tune if the lower is "in tune." I'm thinking it's a return-spring problem, or I need to adjust where the knee lever stops when engaged, but I'm not certain. Does this sound like the same symptoms? Something I've noticed is if I tune the lower (which detunes the open string) and RAISE the same string, then relase, the open pitch is back in tune, but it drops again after engaging/disengaging the lower. Have you tried that experiment?

I don't see a tunable split on your guitar. It's normal for the note to come back flat when you lower it a whole tone and try to raise it a 1/2 tone with a 2nd pedal. This can be adjusted using a compensator rod.
_________________
Lamar S-10, Goodrich L10K VP, Carvin Vintage 16 all-tube amp, John Pearse Cryogenic steel tone bar, John Pearse strings.

richard burton · From: Britain

OK, try one thing at a time.

Get under the steel, and press the pedal which raises a troublesome string.

Keep your eye on the lower return spring for that particular finger, and see if it moves when the raise is activated.

If it moves, and doesn't return when you stop pressing the pedal, it means either the finger needs lubricating, or the spring needs to be shortened slightly.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Zach,

Where are you in Brooklyn? I have to be in Red Hook around 10 pm. I have some time between 8 and 10. If you want, I'll have a look at your guitar.... sounds like a simple matter of overtuning.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Id second the advice from richard about return spring tension.

Check that the finger returns exactly where it should after being lowered and returned by itself.
If all tuning tensions are normal and not binding or overtuned, the spring is generally the only counterforce to returning a lowered string to pitch accurately.

If its an older steel with lots of use, gunk in the changer is the other culprit which can slow return motion, but springs under tension for long periods of time do lose tension and wear out.
Clean the changer with naptha or lighter fluid flush. Tri flow or turbine oil lube, replace or cut a few coils off the old spring.

Clete

Zachary Walters · From: Maryland

Benjamin that is precisely what I'm having trouble with, although I haven't tried the experiment you mentioned.

Richard, after work today I'm going to look underneath and try to do some diagnostics.

If I'm really lost, Mike I may take you up on that. I live in Fort Greene, the show is at the Branded Saloon which I think is in Park Slope. Keep you posted.
_________________
1981 Push-Pull
2009 Super Glide Custom

Zachary Walters · From: Maryland

Sitting here at work looking at pics of the springs under both necks... it appears a previous owner took several loops out of the spring on C6 string 9. I also noticed on the plate that holds the springs, there are two allen screws for each neck. The screw on each neck that's closer to the input jack seems to be slipping away from the plate, or vice versa. Is this is a real problem?

C6:

E9:

_________________
1981 Push-Pull
2009 Super Glide Custom

Zachary Walters · From: Maryland

Forgot to mention... on any of these problem strings if I begin turning a particular nylon WITHOUT the pedal engaged, even with just a few turns, the string that it affects will start to go flat. Backing the nylon off puts the string back in tune.
_________________
1981 Push-Pull
2009 Super Glide Custom

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

This sounds like a condition of not having enough slack and travel in the pedal or lever mechanism that raises those changes, the raise is running out of room before it reaches pitch and affecting the open tuning.

Generally, loosen up the stop screw[s] just a tad and allow the affected pedal or lever to move further.

Sometimes a player will try to "tighten up" the feel of the guitar and will adjust out all the free play. The changer finger must have enough travel to reach the desired note without affecting the idle open tuning.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

From the pictures, I can see at least one finger per neck that is not in the proper idle position. It does look like several of the return springs need to be tightened. The plates are probably not slipping, but may be an indication that the changers are slightly out of alignment with the cabinet.... not real unusual on these guitars. It should be squared up sometime when the guitar is torn completely down. It looks reasonably clean under there, but there could still be some gunk in the changer that could cause some problems as well..... Lots of good advice on this post, which should help zero in on the problem.

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Check for slack at pedal rest, there should be some(not much)room between the nylon, and the point of contact, also the pedal stops(where the pedal rod hooks) Also try a drop of light oil for now. Looks clean, but may need a good cleaning.

Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!!

Benjamin Jayne · From: Orange County California, USA

I don't mean to hijack your thread, Zach, but it sounds like our problems are similar.

So here's something strange I noticed on my guitar today-As I mentioned, I'm also having trouble with a string coming back flat after lowering (4/E). The spring seems to be returning it properly when the knee lever is released, but when I press the C pedal, which raises the same string (4), the finger for the E lever (lowering the 4th) moves as well! This also occurs ever so slightly when I press the F lever, which raises the 4th string as well. This should not be happening, correct? Does this simply mean I have overtuned the changer? Could the spring be too tight? Perhaps there is too much/too little travel on my E lever/C pedal? This could also be a lube problem, I suppose.

I know when I back off the nylon tuner, the problem no longer occurs, but as with Zach, the tighter the nylon tuner, the more severe the problem is.
_________________
Lamar S-10, Goodrich L10K VP, Carvin Vintage 16 all-tube amp, John Pearse Cryogenic steel tone bar, John Pearse strings.

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

unhook the pedal rods from the floor pedal pull the rod with your hand back and forths if it still does it put it back but if it stops and you can make it do it you have your pedal travel to tight
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ

Benjamin Jayne · From: Orange County California, USA

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

you said you backed off the nylon tuners, but did you back them all back and start all over again with your whole guitar. you no doubt have one against the changer somewhere there. what you are saying sure has the signs
_________________
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ

Benjamin Jayne · From: Orange County California, USA

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Benjamin Jayne · From: Orange County California, USA

Bill-thanks for your, and everyone else's contribution. It was checking for slack in the rods at the changer that confirmed I had over-tuned the E lever. I was able to increase the distance of the lever travel, retune the changes on the 4th and 8th E strings, and TADA everything works like a charm now.

Curious for an update on Zach's situation. I would definitely check for slack and see if loosening the nylon tuners makes the "coming back flat" problem go away. If so, you probably need to do the same thing-increase the travel distance so you don't have to tighten the nylon tuners so tight to get the notes in tune. It could also be the springs, but I would check this first, as it's fairly simple to fix.

Good Luck, and thanks again, everyone
_________________
Lamar S-10, Goodrich L10K VP, Carvin Vintage 16 all-tube amp, John Pearse Cryogenic steel tone bar, John Pearse strings.

Zachary Walters · From: Maryland

The solution to the problem looks like a compromise between how much the nylons can tighten, and how far the pedals/knees travel. But when I got the guitar, the travel on almost all of the pedals was very short. The only problem knee which was the RKL, had too much travel, but this was causing a different problem where the lower goes too far and then comes back up from rest to full-throw. I increased travel in the pedals and decreased it for that RKL, but the problem still remains on the pedals.

I'm not quite going to give up, although eventually I plan to send this guitar to be torn-down and have the hardware replaced. So in the meantime I guess I'm not going to hack at it too much for this problem. But I'll continue to try some of these suggestions. Thanks for all the help.
_________________
1981 Push-Pull
2009 Super Glide Custom

Zachary Walters · From: Maryland

Well it all boiled down to having enough room along the path from nylon to pedal to be able to tune the changes enough without de-tuning the string. After a visit to Jon Light across the neighborhood from me here in Brooklyn, all is well. Giving some attention to each allen screw, and getting some of the slop out of each pedal and knee, cut to the core of the problem.

The Bud feels rejuvenated and has sprung back to life. I can't thank Jon enough. It was nice to take a look at all those U-12's he had too. Quite a collection.

Thanks Jon!!!
_________________
1981 Push-Pull
2009 Super Glide Custom

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

As mentioned, back all nylon tuners off until they are slack then retighten until there is approx 1/32" slack in the rod(s). On each pedal/knee with 2 strings activated ,tune the pedal/knee stop screw until the string with the longest pull is in tune, then fine tune both strings with the nylon tuning nuts. You will have a tad of slack always between any nylon nut and finger that distance is slightly greater on strings requiring shorter strech to acquire proper pitch. This is where timing withe different holes on the bell cranks comes into play...but that is another chapter....Stormy Winking

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Many times, the problems you describe are just adjustments, like not enough slack as was mentioned. This is something EVERY owner of a pedal steel needs to understand, and not try to get real short travels and screw up the system. "Over tuning" as we call it, is probably the cause of a lot of the problems we see on here. There's been a few recent threads where this was the case. Bottom line, there needs to be enough slack so the nylon nut does not contact and pull the finger when the pedal is not activated. Not much. Maybe a 1'16 of an inch is good enough, but it NEEDS to be there.

I don't know Jon personally, but from here on the forum, I can tell he is good people. Good choice seeking him out.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

That's great, Zach. Jon Light, not only is very capable working on shobuds, but is one of the finest guys you could ever meet. Smile

_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

That's cool that Jon could help you out. Smile

I have a Pro-1 with that same changer.
Another changer issue to check for is called "Lift-Off".
This is when you raise a string, but the spring holding the Lowering finger is not strong enough to hold the lowering finger in contact with the stop-plate.
So you raise a string and the tuning of the raised note is now "floating" because the lowering finger is "lifting-off".
I suspect that is why some of your springs have been modified.

In your changer pictures above, look at string 6 of your C6th neck (counting from the top down).
The Lowering finger is not in contact with the stop plate. The spring looks too long, and/or I suspect the nylon lower tuner is screwed in too far, but Jon probably fixed that one.
The second spring down in that pic looks like it was modified to fix this problem, but the lower is probably stiff now.

One test I would do...
Raise the longest raise on each string (for example, E>F# on E9 string 4).
If you can affect the pitch of the raised note by pushing the Lowering finger against the stop plate, that spring is no longer strong enough, and you will struggle with tuning instability.
It might be strong enough to hold E>F stable, but not strong enough to hold E>F#.

Gremlins I tell ya...
Gremlins.

Here is a pic of the same Sho-Bud changer, but the lowering fingers were updated to incorporate longer springs (to hold the lowering finger stable during raises, yet stretch smoothly during lowers).
[Note the distance from the Lowering finger spring attach point, to the stop plate, compared to yours].
The owner has modified it further to employ adjustable spring tension.

Here is that thread:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=194454&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=spring&start=0

Lana Carroll · From: Brooklyn, NY

also, Zack: just to chime in late, I was at your show and your steel sounded great!
_________________
http://music.karenandthesorrows.com/

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic