best wood dye/stains (zb cabinet)

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

i had to repair a bad cigarette burn on a S10 ZB, removed the finish some time ago now ready to tackle staining and finishing and want to do it right. which are the best or appropriate wood dye/stains to use that offer those rich colors desired for ZBs or any lacquer steel i guess for that matter? thanks Smile

Robert Parent · From: Gillette, WY

Steve,

Here is a link to some I have had good luck with...

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm

They have powder and liquid forms, some are water based others are alcohol based. There are advantages and disadvantages to either. I assume your guitar is maple, if so stay away from any thing labeled stain, it is dye that you want for best results.

Robert

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

perfect...thats the stuff. thanks robert

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

Leather dye also works very well on maple. Just a thought Smile

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I've actually used Rit fabric dye on Maple. But I would think that an alcohol dye would be better. Non grain-raising would be best. When doing gunstocks. I would sand down to my finest grit and then do "whiskering." That's aiming steam onto the wood to raise all the little "whiskers" that sanding had knocked down but not cut off. Then sand off the whiskers and start finishing. On one black powder rifle stock, I actually used a dye made up of alcohol and Redman Chewing Tobacco.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

I agree with John Billings about the dye. Water soluble is grain raising and should be avoided. I speak out of experience as I did my most recent steel with aniline dye(water). The grain raises , the dye does not soak in far enough and you end up removing some dye upon sanding.
Leather dye is a great alternative. I am trying that on my next project. Bill Ford had great luck with that on his Red CLR steel.
Also. I have had good reports on the stain that is available from Stewmac. It is a bit over-priced. But the advantage is that you can mix it with alcohol to get your required shade.
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bent,
I wonder if Rit dye is soluble in alcohol? There are so many colors available. The Maple parts that I dyed with scarlet Rit came out with beautiful color. They did get a bit of grain-raising, but it didn't matter in their case. As I recall (???) Rit is an anyline dye?

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

John, I am gonna try exactly that. I have zero experience with RIT, as I just heard about it recently from Martin Weenick. He uses it to dye plastic parts.
If I am not mistaken, you have to mix it in hot water and of course that won't work too well with alcohol!

But it begs to be tried so stand by!
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bent,
I just emailed Rit a few minutes ago. If I get an answer, I'll let you know.
JB

Bobby Burns · From: Tennessee, USA

I would be carful about using RIT dye on wood. It isn't very colorfast. I have been building and repairing acoustic instruments a lot longer than I have been messing with steels. Several years ago (20+) I refinned a Gibson A-50 that had been stripped of the original finish and painted. I hand rubbed a very pretty and original looking sunburst, sprayed it with laquer and I was very proud of the way it looked. The owner brought it by a couple of years ago and I was horrified at the color. It had faded so that the shades of red and brown and amber in the burst were now like salmon and putrid greenish earthtones and very pale. It had faded gradually over time and I don't think the owner had noticed. I offered to redo it, but he said that he kinda liked the color that it was, so we left it. The stain on that mando was rit dye. I have since seen an older mando made by a very famous maker that has a green burst, and I asked him, and he said that in the early days, he used a lot of rit dye, and also food coloring, until he started noticing how bad some of his early ones had faded. I assume that Zane Beck may have used this stuff also. Have you ever noticed how some of thoses brown or grey ZBs are red or green or blue under the fingerboard and endplates?
I use the Transtints, and solarlux stains, and I have also used quite a bit of leather dye. I think I may like the leather dye the best.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bobby,
Thanks for that info. I hope Rit answers my ? about alcohol, cuz then I can follow up askin' about fading.

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

here's a pic of the repair i did some time ago of the burn hole. not a perfect grain match but somewhat close. I leached out as much of the old stain i had patience to do with lacquer thinner and steel wool but there still some trace of the old stain (kind of greyish) in the grain. the old finish was a medium brown. Maybe a wood bleach stage would help further (with inlay masked) before a new dye job. I have no experience with dye but i know a stain would probably highlight the hairline circle. Im hoping a DYE wouldnt , maybe the bleach will help. other idea is to mix a fine blond wood paste maybe with some maple dust mixed in and rub it in the circle,light sand, then dye.
The other issue is which way to go with color...restore original or get a little creative, a consideration is what would work best over what ever remains of the old stain in the grain.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I "wood"* go to the LMII website if I were you, and read carefully their primer* material on water-based, alcohol-based and MEK dyes.
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/FinishOverview.htm
Then maybe spend some time at the library, requesting a few books. I read everything I could find before I dove in to it. Dan Erlewine's "Complete Guitar Repair Guide" has a good overview, umm:
http://woodworker.com/fullpres.asp?PARTNUM=119-849&LARGEVIEW=ON
umm, this guy's book was helpful to me, it's pretty definitive in the field:
http://www.michaeldresdner.com/books-and-videos/the-new-wood-finishing-book/

*(Ha! Ha ha! HaHaHa...)

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I have a friend who is an artist in wood. Builds super high-end furniture, etc. He fixed this burn mark for me. It went through the finish, and actually charred the wood black. The burn is where the "flash" is.

He used a cabinet scraper, and following down the center of the side of the peghead, he scraped from the center of the 10th string Grover, to the endplate where the "Gumby" touches the endplate. Then he dyed the wood to match the Barroom Blonde look, and finished it with a water-bases lacquer. Looks really good!

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Wow, John, that is totally invisible!
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

It is Bent. And he used water-based dye/stain and water-based lacquer. He's amazing. Right now he's finishing up a 16' long conference table that he got on commission. He's got a stash of wood that's incredible! If I ever get to restore a steel that's been in a fire, he'll make the body!

Bobby Burns · From: Tennessee, USA

Stephen, since you have a glue line around that circle, I'm not sure your'e going to completely hide it. Any dyes or stains that you would normally put on the bare wood to accent the grain, will most likely also highlight the circle.
I would do what ever stain/dye I wanted to bring out the grain of the original wood. Then I would seal it with a few coats of laquer (or what ever finish you're using). Then I would take a very small brush and some ink, that is as close to the color of the dark grain lines in the maple, and lightly paint those grain lines where they cross the edges of the circle glue line. Carefully make the lines continue unbroken across the glue line. Then seal this with a few coats of laquer. Then I'd put the dye/stain the color I wanted the guitar in my laquer and spray the color on. This way you wouldn't have to worry about the new piece of wood soaking up the stain different than the old.

It looks like you lined up the grain pretty good, but there are a lot of variations in grain characteristics for one piece of maple to another. Also you have to carefully match up the saw cut so that the grain runs out the same on both pieces in all directions, so that it reflects light the same way. It would be very difficult for an expert to do an invisible repair in this situation, in a blond finish. I try to avoid patches that look like circle or squares also. If you gouge out an irregular shaped chunk, and make an irregular shaped patch to match it, you'll still have a glue line, but the line will have a better chance of looking like a natural part of the board. Remember-Trees don't grow in perfect squares and circles, we cut them that way. Look at the way the grain flows in and out of the edges of the knots around the birdseye figure. Make your patch look like that, and if it reflects light different than the wood around it, it will just look like the natural figure of the wood.

Sorry for the dissertation Embarassed

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

beautiful job john.
your friend knows what he's doing.
the zb had too much of a hole burnt into it unfortunately it needed a plug.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Bobby, thanks for that info...You are saying that they would fade like the old ShoBuds or MSA's did? That really is too bad. I am wondering if there are any clear finishes on the market today that would prevent fading more so than the lacquer you used 20+ years ago?

This discussion really piqued my curiosity and made me want to at least experiment a bit.
Here is a sample of wood finishing from the RIT site
http://www.ritdye.com/Wood+&+Wicker.110.175.lasso Scroll down to the 2nd pic. It is obviously pine but notice how the dye literally throws the grain out at ya. Hard maple might be trickier; it might take several applications to get it right.
Also, I want to experiment with using alcohol instead of water for mixing, even though the site tells us to use water. Alcohol and water do mix so I can't see any harm in trying.
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bent,
I get "Page not found."
I haven't heard back from them about using alcohol instead of water.

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

good ideas bobby, thanks. I considered attempting some feux work to blend it in better. Ill probably give it a try.

Martin Weenick · From: Lecanto, FL, USA

I use the COLOR TONE liquid dye from Stew/Mac. It is very highly concentrated. I mix with alcohol or laquer thinner. and spray it on. Works great. Martin.
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Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Bent,
I just went back to the Rit site and got in that way.
My buddy makes furnitue, cabintry, doors, etc., for the ultra rich. Amazing. Doesn't even have a website. Doesn't need one. He's always swamped with orders.

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