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Topic: 1/8 tone lower on the 7th string |
Rick Byrd
From:
Birmingham, AL, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 6:40 am |
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Wondering how many players use an 1/8 tone drop on the 7th string to lower the pitch slightly so that the 7th string is in tune with strings 5 and 10 when raised to C#.
Do you also drop your 1st string by 1/8 tone on the same pedal or another pedal?
Thanks. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 8:12 am
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| Funny you should ask. I just now added a slight drop to string 1 with my A pedal. Now (until I get a better idea or find some serious drawback) I'm dropping 1 and 7 with either A or B. With A to be in tune with the C#'s and with B to be in tune as a third to D's on strings 9 or 2. The only drawback I see so far is strings 1 and 7 being slightly out of tune with B pedal and E lever for a 7th chord (or 9th with A pedal), but in that position they're the fifth of the chord and can be omitted. |
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Jerry Erickson
From:
Atlanta,IL 61723
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 8:31 am
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| IIRC, Jimmy Crawford used to use a compensator on the B pedal to lower the 7th string and would lower the 1st string with the A pedal. |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 11:49 am 7th string.
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I did that nearly 40 years ago.I don't recall which pedal i connected a rod to to lower the 7th string when i raised the 5th and 6th.The 7th string would not be in tune with the open tuning and a&b pedals down.
Goes back to the tempered tuning like a piano i suppose where a steel can not be in perfect tune in every key.Or any other instrument as far as i am aware of.
Back when i first started in music on piano that drove me nuts as i am sure it did others who were born with perfect pitch ear and didn't understand at the time why nothing sounded in perfect tune,which it wasn't.
Just someting one had to ignore and learn to live with it.Tracy |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 2:44 pm
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| If you play a steel with a lot of cabinet drop you don't need compensators on 1 & 7. Just press the pedals and the problem is solved (or at least less noticeable). |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 3:13 pm
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On my Dekley I don't have the 7th string F#, but I raise the 1st F# string around 7-8 cent when I lower the 3d and 6th strings and/or raise 4th and 8th strings to F#, to get perfect pitch. Two levers then gives me 3 high strings in unison F# over 2 low strings F#, over an extended low 7th string also in F#, and the high and low strings splits to G# and E when I release these levers. Nice effect - when I want it.
Never found a need to lower the F# string to get it in tune in chords with any pedal/lever combination. This has to do with my JI tuning-variant, and the inaudible detuning (cabinet drop) no matter which and how many pedals/levers I push on that PSG.
My MSA U12 is another matter - it needs those compensators badly despite being tuned to the same JI variant. Won't bother putting any compensators in until I've eliminated its detuning (cabinet drop) weakness though. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 5:02 pm
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Tune to Equal Tempered tuning and you wouldn't have to waste time with nonsensical problems such as this.
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 5:06 pm
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| It's only a "nonsensical problem" if you can't hear the difference. |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 5:14 pm 7th string.
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One needs to keep in mind my self and all the old timers who started out years before before electronic tuners all tuned by ear.
This is by no means to degrade any one but any one thinks they are in perfect tune in every key should be thankful they were not born with perfect pitch ear.Tracy |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 5:54 pm
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Tracy -- I too started out years before electronic tuners were invented, and I too tuned by ear for decades.
And yes, Peter, I can "hear the difference." But using Equal Tempered Tuning on psg so that every chord is slightly "out of tune" is infinitely more logical that using Just Intonation so that some chords are perfect yet others are grossly out of tune. Sorry, I know that we've all been around the block on this argument, but an "1/8th tone lower" is so ridiculous, unnecessary, time-consuming, money-wasting, and absurd that I had to comment. But don't bother to respond, because you'll never convince me otherwise. Cold mathematical logic trumps tradition every time, especially when it sounds better...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 6:19 pm reply;
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| Barry Hyman wrote: |
Tracy -- I too started out years before electronic tuners were invented, and I too tuned by ear for decades.
And yes, Peter, I can "hear the difference." But using Equal Tempered Tuning on psg so that every chord is slightly "out of tune" is infinitely more logical that using Just Intonation so that some chords are perfect yet others are grossly out of tune. Sorry, I know that we've all been around the block on this argument, but an "1/8th tone lower" is so ridiculous, unnecessary, time-consuming, money-wasting, and absurd that I had to comment. But don't bother to respond, because you'll never convince me otherwise. Cold mathematical logic trumps tradition every time, especially when it sounds better... |
Glad it never bothered you Berry.
It did me.The curse of being born with perfect pitch.I started on piano then violin.Always bugged me that a piano sounded a litle out of tune to me.This was long before i was aware i had perfect pitch.
Before i took up steel every one in the band noticed i screwed up my face when i played a slightly off key note they didn't even notice.
A classical orchestra leader can be conducting a 100 piece orchestra and will correct any one who is slightltly out of tune.
The violinist Heifetz who had no peers would stop the orchestra if any instrument got even slighty out of tune.
This is in no way meant to argue.Only trying to get across the curse of being born with perfect pich.Tracy |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 6:27 pm
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| Here comes the missionary trying to convert me. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Jan 2010 8:16 pm
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Rick Byrd
From:
Birmingham, AL, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 3:30 am 1/8 tone lower on string 1 or string 7
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I was thinking that an 1/8 tone lower on string 1 or string 7 on E9 may be becoming more common these days, however, that may not be the case. Its hard to determine because the change may not be mentioned on a tuning chart.
I use an 1/8 tone lower for the 7th string on pedal A. This drops the pitch slightly so that the 7th string is in tune on several chord inversions which may include the use of one or more of strings 5,6,7,8,9,10 primarily with pedals A and B engaged.
I also use an 1/8 tone lower for the 1st string on pedal C. This drops the pitch slightly so that the 1st string is in tune with strings 4 and 5 when raised.
Looks like there are several variations in how the 1/8 tone change is used for strings 1 or 7. Typically, the longest pull available is used for the 1/8 tone change so that it has minimal effect on pedal pressure.
Thanks for everyone’s comments. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 5:56 am
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Rick, almost the only place I've seen the F# string lower mentioned in writing is on the Just Intonation of the E9th Pedal Steel. That page should probably be referred to more often when various forms of tunings and adjustments are discussed.
Clearly I don't use that JI variant, so compensating by lowering the F# to another fraction with the A/B pedals wouldn't sound good on my PSG. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 7:06 am
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| Barry, You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and any method of tuning you want. I was answering Rick's post, not trying to convince or convert anyone. A lot of space has been devoted to this discussion in the past, so I wouldn't trivialize it as "nonsensical". |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 2:01 pm temper
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I have been doing that for years. I put it on all of my guitars and several repairs. We put it on some new guitars when the customer asked for it too at Emmons. It works on P/P's and LeGrande guitars.
Doug
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 2:56 pm
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| I've always thought that those imperfect pitches add character. Everything can be set straight with electronic music. Perfectly synchronized and in-tune Electronica sucks pretty hard, in my opinion. |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 6:49 pm
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I seen to always get a little dizzy when I read posts about pich and tuning,must be my middle ear  . I'm glad my hearing is not as great as some of yours ,or think your hearing is so great. After playing so many years in bands ,its a wounder we can still hear the radio. Maybe some of you have lost some hearing and don't realize it. Maybe thats why you keep changing the way you tune. Could it be the tuner is wrong,or you don't hear as good as you used to  . Joe |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 10:46 pm For Barry H.. Initiate in the ETSB..
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Barry. You must be relatively new.
Maybe I can save you some trouble.
There are a LOT of players and yes, even nearly up to the Top with notable exceptions (including Mr Emmons) that can't seem to get themselves used to an Equal Tempered ( for lack of a better term) Major Third. (I know Weldon, Bill Stafford, and a couple others "ET", but I'm sworn not to drag them into this fray of philistines..)
They will have intricate systems to get as many major thirds minorized as they can and some of them are pretty complete.
Then something happens:
They all of a sudden pretend that none of their changes, or single notes or chord fragments played out of the "harmonic scale" are anything but "beatless", and that they are playing in "Just Intonation".
When somebody pokes enough holes in the obviously flawed "system" you'll hear how "Everybody's Ears" like to hear their major third without the annoying 6hz cycle the rest of us do, and furthermore "All the Big Guys in the Big Studios, and on the Big Stage" either use the Jeff Newmann Minorization Chart, or something close. You'll find yourself prety insulted if you're not careful, and by some pretty self important people. Maybe even one or two that are "famous".
Welcome to the club.
Here's a thread I started a few years ago that happens to includes Mr Emmons most recent clear comments on how he tunes.
Actually a guy got into the archives and after the fact edited that "Mr Emmons must not have meant what he said", but his "editions" got removed.
Don't think Mr E didn't get insulted and denigrated for what he posted. I was sorry to hear quite a bit of it. The fact that it was behind his back means something to me.
It's really not worth the grief you get from these guys that believe they have changed our 12 note system, and that "our" ears prefer "Just Intonation", as if that's what their "minorization conglomerations" get them.
Wanna test it?
Slow their "Hit Recordings" way down and see if it sounds like they are in tune with the guitars or pianos, fiddles, (yes even them) or even "in tune". They don't.
Anyhow, enjoy, Barry.
Most of "Us" in the "ET" Brotherhood know what happens to the "initiate".
Me, I'll tune it and play it this weekend like most others..
Probably more out of Spite, than anything else..
EJL |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 25 Jan 2010 11:21 pm
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Joe, loss of hearing can lead to many things, including less than optimal tunings and/or pitch-confusion. The need some have for F# string compensators doesn't indicate that they have severe hearing problems though. It only indicates what tuning they've chosen, and to some degree how their PSGs work and how they play them.
Personally I haven't voluntarily listened to radio for ... over a decade, and haven't used a tuner to tune my steel for over two decades. Not sure what to use either for now
I do have a hearing loss, but that is from back when my right ear got damaged at the age of 4, and it doesn't affect my sense of pitch or tone - has been checked many times over the years.
It does keep me aware of the need to protect my sense of hearing anyway I can though. Once some is really gone it is in most cases not all that much that can be done to get it back. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 1:21 am
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We're dealing with relative pitch and an imperfect mechanical instrument strung with imperfect medal wire.
It is physically imposable to achieve perfect relative pitch across the neck through the whole range of levers and pedals of a PSG as we presently know it.
Even if you did achieve that perfection it would only be good for one brief moment and on the very next try it would be out.
Perfect pitch country music, defiantly an oxymoron. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 3:07 am
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| Stuart Legg wrote: |
| Perfect pitch country music, defiantly an oxymoron. |
You may be right - I wouldn't know...
Music consists of brief moments strung together, and even if the PSG - as we know it - may not be capable of providing perfect pitch across all possible pedal/lever combinations, it certainly isn't impossible to "play out" its deficiencies by ear so it sounds like it is in perfect pitch throughout all those brief moments.
FWIW: I've found out - actually a long time ago - why I don't tune the same way and need the same compensators as most others (I use compensators but not the more regular ones). I don't have enough knowledge about music theory and the English language to explain my tuning "correctly", so here's my "simple and short" description:
My preferences makes me JI tune - tune out the beats for most intervals - in a way that sounds "bright" to my ears, to get a sound that is more like that of string instruments tuned as they were before various multi-key tempering - especially equal temperament - became widely used in the western world.
Since there are not one but many JI tunings (as many as we like really, but they don't all sound good), I seem (maybe by accident but probably by ear) to have landed on a variant that works well with my PSG copedant. It is not a question of "tuning out the beats" for all chords and in all keys - that would be impossible on any polytonal instrument, but to have those intervals arranged so the instrument can be played to sound like all tones are in perfect pitch. It complicates things a bit and puts high demands on ear and technique - I certainly quite often feel a bit lost on the latter, but it certainly isn't impossible or else there wouldn't have been so many steel players that actually manages it most of the time.
I really am neutral on how steelers tune their PSGs - JI or ET or something in between or completely different - with or without whatever compensators. What matters is that the instrument sounds good and in pitch and tune when playing music - whatever music form - on it, and that's up to the player. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 6:02 am
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To Eric,
You made me laugh!!! It's not that I am new to psg, and I have been enjoying being a Forum member for about a year. It's just that my background as a longtime music teacher, coupled with several years experience as a health care professional, means that when I engage someone in conversation and find out that they are seriously confused about something, my normal inclination is to try to help. And believe it or not, the usual reaction is that I get both thanked and paid!
Georg is clearly a serious scientifically-minded musician who knows what he is talking about and why he does what he does, and I both like and respect him, based on his many thoughtful and pleasant posts.
But some of the other advocates of complex tuning systems (the JI Fundamentalists, I call them) do seem thoroughly confused. I read them talking about how they have to avoid certain strings or certain chords, or how they have to fret certain chords in between the frets or with tiny slants, or how they spend serious money for compensators and 1/8 step lowers and tuners that cost hundreds of dollars. They try to tune to things like 439.5, or tune every string to a different standard, or have to pull out elaborate charts to tune. How sad! (And how annoying it must be for their bandmates while they wait for the bizarre tuning rituals to be completed!) But when I try to offer a clear, simple, flawless, logical, low-cost solution that makes every single chord and interval on a psg sound wonderful, the reaction is that, instead of trying to help my psg friends with their problem, they imply that I have a problem! But I must say I am still enjoying myself. I learned long ago that you have to laugh at what is wrong with the world, because it doesn't change that easy...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2010 8:09 am
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You must tune to what your ears tells you is in tune with where the progression of your ears are at. If you continue to progress your ears in hearing intonation; you will continue to progress your tuning of your instrument along with it.
If you are tuning your instrument and playing your instrument; without equal time in progressing your ears in hearing intonation; you have NO DOG in the intonation discussions.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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